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If eternal torment or annihilation is true, then God is the most diabolical being in the universe.
Imagine a God who brings humans into existance and then blinds them on purpose to the gospel just so they can spend eternity in some hell?
Mat 11:25 At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee,
Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the
wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors."
Jesus may as well have said "I thank Thee Father, LORD OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, that you blinded these people for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them.
And if that's not bad enough, God chose just certain ones before they were ever born to be saved from His eternal torture chamber which means He did not choose the rest of the billions and billions of humanity.
Eph 1:4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
Rom 9:21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same
kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
Rom 9:22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His
powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of
indignation, adapted for destruction,
Rom 9:23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory
on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -"
Rom 9:24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the
nations also."
And Jesus colluded with the Father to blind humans so they'd go to hell for eternity (if eternal torment is true) . . .
Mat 13:10-16 And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art
Thou speaking in parables to them? (11) Now, answering, He said to
them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom
of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given." (12) For anyone
who has, to him shall be given, and he shall have a superfluity. Yet
anyone who has not, that also which he has shall be taken away from
him." (13) Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that,
observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing,
neither are they understanding." (14) And filled up in them is the
prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and
may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing,
and may by no means be perceiving." (15) For stoutened is the heart of
this people, And with their ears heavily they hear, And with their eyes
they squint, Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes,
And with their ears should be hearing, And with their heart may be
understanding, And should be turning about, And I shall be healing
them.'" (16) Yet happy are your eyes, for they are observing, and your
ears, for they are hearing."
Of course God needs PR men to try to make Him look better so His PR men invented the free-will camp. But that won't work because even if man did have a free-will to reject God, they are still blinded by God before they could reject Him and are still made vessels of indignation before they could make any free-will choice to accept eternal heaven with such an ogre or eternal hell.
And if eternal torment is true, why would Christ even need to die in the first place? It seems like alot of wasted blood to me. After all, God chose us not to go to this eternal place of torture before Christ died.
Do you see the problems with eternal torment? It turns a loving God into a capricious, dispicable, manipulating, ogre of a god far worse than any god of the heathens.
I am so thankful that God will have all mankind to be saved (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10).
In light of God saving all, I can see how He can still be loving even though He chooses just so many for life in the future eons and how He could blind certain ones to the truth. I can see why Christ had to die for all mankind. Without Christ's death no one could be saved. By Christ's death all will be saved.
Amen!
Eusebius Saviour of all Fellowship, universal reconciliation, salvation of all mankind
If eternal torment or annihilation is true, then God is the most diabolical being in the universe. Imagine a God who brings humans into existance and then blinds them on purpose to the gospel just so they can spend eternity in some hell?
The leading athiest author, Richard Dawkins in his book, "The God Delusion" referred to God as (based solely from him "studying" the bible) and I quote, jealous, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"
Romans 9:14-20 (New American Standard Bible)
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 07-31-2009 at 06:58 AM..
Exactly! Most humans wouldn't do this to another human! And we are supposed to believe that the wonderful loving all knowing compassionate god would be so cruel?! So are people better than god? Sure there are a few sicko-s out there, but the majority of us have more of a heart than how the bible describes god.
Exactly! Most humans wouldn't do this to another human! And we are supposed to believe that the wonderful loving all knowing compassionate god would be so cruel?! So are people better than god? Sure there are a few sicko-s out there, but the majority of us have more of a heart than how the bible describes god.
Man! am I ecstatic not to mention relieved that God does not value nor try to meet man's standards. Considering the wonderful track record humanity has.
There is this colossal, misguided misconception in the world today even among many Christians that God does things that are good, that is wrong. Things are good because God does it.
Those Puritans were very wise people.
(Proverbs 20:6) Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 07-31-2009 at 07:09 AM..
Well tell me fundy...would you purposely torment in the worst possible way some of your children because they didn't live up to your standards? And not just torment them for awhile...but forever and ever? God is a big bully. "Believe in me and follow my ridiculous rules or burn forever! No exceptions!"
The worst part is that a person can be the most loving, giving, caring, compassionate, human being on earth and will still be burned in hell just because they don't believe the right thing. Ridiculous!
The leading athiest author, Richard Dawkins in his book, "The God Delusion" referred to God as (based solely from him "studying" the bible) and I quote, jealous, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully"
Romans 9:14-20 (New American Standard Bible)
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Fundy, Romans 9:14-20 is true. However, if eternal torment is correct then God made these people that way for the sole purpose of eternally torturing them. Therefore He brought them into existence for that sole purpose. Does that really sound loving and just to you?
And He blinded them so they could not see to be saved. So He could eternally torture them? Is that just?
What of Christ dying for all their sins?
And if He did not, then God is still unjust for bringing billions into existence and not giving a damn about them and roasting them anyway.
No, Fundy, your god is found wanting in the balances.
Man! am I ecstatic not to mention relieved that God does not value nor try to meet man's standards. Considering the wonderful track record humanity has.
Yeah especially since man wants to exclude certain people and cast them away forever it is a good thing God doesn't do that at all.
Well tell me fundy...would you purposely torment in the worst possible way some of your children because they didn't live up to your standards? And not just torment them for awhile...but forever and ever? God is a big bully. "Believe in me and follow my ridiculous rules or burn forever! No exceptions!"
The worst part is that a person can be the most loving, giving, caring, compassionate, human being on earth and will still be burned in hell just because they don't believe the right thing. Ridiculous!
Your understanding of a good person is based on a fallen, corrupt, finite understanding. None of us are good, only God. I am sure if you could read any of those people's mind you described, you would never allow your children to stay with them.
(Psalm 14:3) 3They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
We don't go to hell because we don't believe, belief is what enables us to enter the kingdom. We go to hell because we broke God's Laws. We sin therefore we deserve death, we are born sinners-we ALL deserve hell. The wonderful news is no matter what we did even though we are wretches and ALL are destined for hell that He came died for us, He took the punishment from God on the cross that was meant for us. He stepped in and paid our fine so that we could be with Him.
There are many unbelievers who act better, even are kinder, gentler, giving and more compassionate than many Christians but since God's level of goodness, righteousness is so high ALL our good works are of filthy rags to Him because they have all been tainted with sin.
(Isaiah 64:6) 6For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
The only way of achieving perfection or righteousness in God's eyes is to receive the blood of Christ so that the blood can cover you. When God looks at Christ, He sees you and when He looks at you, He sees Christ.
THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS MY BELOVED!
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 07-31-2009 at 07:40 AM..
There are many unbelievers who act better, even are kinder, gentler, giving and more compassionate than many Christians but since God's level of goodness, righteousness is so high ALL our good works are of filthy rags to Him because they have all been tainted with sin.
Maybe because the unbeliever is only an unbeliever by mans standards and not Gods.
But to excuse a-hole christians because they "say" they believe to the satisfaction of religion is mans way of looking at things for sure
Exactly! Most humans wouldn't do this to another human! And we are supposed to believe that the wonderful loving all knowing compassionate god would be so cruel?! So are people better than god? Sure there are a few sicko-s out there, but the majority of us have more of a heart than how the bible describes god.
Exactly.
Good post, Eusebius.
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