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June does not doubt what is written ^ above. June may be an atheist, but she loves her friend. She knows that he is an ordained minister. He knows that she is a nonbeliever.
What is interesting to note here is that no one has yet to ask what his denomination is...
-What if he is a Universalist? -What if he is not?
More importantly, the question is:
Does it matter???
(And if so, why?) That's June's question.
Never asked because it never matter to me!
God is Love and Loves all mankind, and same!
and so Nope! It matters not!
I can see the love of God through anyone. I have seen the love of God through you. You being an atheist does not matter. If it is love, it is from God. There are some people who are christians who I do not see much love coming from them. God sees the heart.
There are a lot of things masquerading as love, but they are not love.
Folks say "love you" yet, their other words leading up to those two words do not paint the picture of love.
I believe God doesn't see labels. He sees the HEART. I am a firm believer in this. I believe that there will be some christians who will not recognize God when they see Him. And there will be some atheists/people of different religions/what have you, who WILL recognize God.
The label doesn't mean much, it's the heart that matters.
For me, I believe that Jesus died on the cross to show us just how far God will go, to show us that He loves us. Even up to the point of mankind putting Him on a torturous cross, left to suffer and die. Mankind cannot kill God. There is nothing that we can do to ESCAPE His love. His love stretches out as far as east travels away from west.
I didn't always believe in God. Then for years, I had a very shallow, vague belief. So, I know what it's like to be on the other side of belief in God.
Since I started to truly seek (or perhaps he pulled me in, y'know?), and I started to truly believe... it's like my life become just centered. Like all those years I was kind of wandering aimlessly, and slowly but surely, I got my center of gravity. Do I stil have little doubts and fears sometimes? of course. But then when I overcome, it makes my faith that much stronger. It's like a muscle. It may get torn, but when it's rebuilt, it's that much stronger.
I feel we are all on a path back home. We all are at different points on that path. And that's really ok. I think all lives have a purpose. I believe this life is showing us what love really is and who God really is. He is showing us by our experiences and our reflections on those experiences.
Individually and as a whole. Now and then later. It's like every life is a thread in a grand tapestry that HE is weaving. We will all see the big picture some day, and we will all realize the POWER of love (God) and the futility of NON-love. I feel these lessons will be ingrained into us for eternity. We are all going back home... But we must first take part in learning so that we CAN go back home. I feel He is preparing us for eternity.
As far as what it would matter what you believe, as one human being to another... I have so much excitement over how much love has exploded in my heart and into my being since discovering the glorious truth that He does love ALL and He will be ALL in ALL. That all people are on a journey back home. I would say that sister.... y'know... it matters to me, only because I would only wish the best for you. And the best, so far is seeing God for the magnificent being that I see him as. And knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt how much HE loves US. Not just ME! Not just my dad. But YOU, Fundy, beloved57, Shana, pcamps, ILNC, Verna, EVERYONE.
It only matters to me because I would want you to experience what I've experienced these last 6 years. How the love just grows. How everything starts to slowly make sense. Suffering, just everything starts to make sense. There is no confusion. There is no hypocrisy. Nothing but a magnificent PLAN.
Imagine you and I are on a path in the woods leading up to the grand canyon... your question (in the OP), is like asking me if it would matter to me if you just hung around in the woods, instead of walking the rest of the way down the path... Sister, it would matter to me in the sense that I know you would be missing such a breathtaking, unbelievably magnificent and utterly majestic view. You are my sister, and if it's your path to be in the beautiful woods and enjoy the trees, then that is your path and I would wish you love and peace. But I would still wish that you would keep walking and watch that majestic view unfold before your eyes.
Hope that makes sense.
I know you are an atheist, and I hope it doesn't offend you...but I have to say I see God in you all the time. Your heart is quite lovely.
June, bless your heart sister, I'm just so glad you came. I'm crying, you're crying, everybody is crying....Just come, okay? That's all.
Betsey: READ THE OP!
June is specifically asking something that (although she "personalized" it) is a question pertaining to the nature of what transpires on this forum every single day.
It goes to the heart of the matter of the ongoing debate, anger, and rage that exits here as regards "Universalism" versus "Non-Universalism."
Whether or not the 'likes of June' eventually finds God is not the issue. (Although, admittedly, June can absolutely acknowledge why everyone would rejoice!)
--What IS the issue is this: Would it be preferable for her to become a "Univerasalist" as opposed to remaining an atheist??? If so, why, or why not?
June is asking in direct response to what she reads (in all of your posts) each and every day...
Welcome to the ranks of Camus, Sartre. Dostoevsky, Kafka, Nietzsche, and one lone June, who stood in a dark parking lot last week while clutching a copy of "Reasons For God" given to her by the same friend who prayed for her.
I remember coming here a year and a half or so ago and being in the minority - a drop of universalism in an ocean of eternal hellness (along with my fellow drips - Shana and spm and a few others).
I am truly stunned by the sheer numbers of unies here now - amazing, really.
June does not doubt what is written ^ above. June may be an atheist, but she loves her friend. She knows that he is an ordained minister. He knows that she is a nonbeliever.
What is interesting to note here is that no one has yet to ask what his denomination is...
-What if he is a Universalist? -What if he is not?
More importantly, the question is:
Does it matter???
(And if so, why?) That's June's question.
Hi again June, no it don't matter to me ( I beleive in the restitution of all things) but that is secondary to my beleif in Christ.
I call those who are in denominations brothers and sisters just as I call Universalists brothers and sisters, because that is what we are in Christ.
We are all members of His body.
But you will find that it makes a difference to some people.
For example if you accepted Christ in your life and beleive in Christian Universalism you will find many (not all) who belong to denominations who will say your not a christian, your God ain't our God which really is the same thing as saying you are not a christian.
Now this works both ways, I have never heard (not that I know everyone) a Universalist say to one in a denomination that they are not a christian, but have heard many (not all) say your God ain't my God, and like I said it amounts to the same thing.
So know matter what path you take, you are going to get a backlash, it ain't pretty, but it will happen.
And if you stay an athiest, I have even had them ask me how I can call myself a christian because I don't belong to an organized denomination.
So it seems many people beleive that unless you belong to an organized denomination you cannot be called a christian.
So what it boils down to is many (not all) people beleive that unless you belong to some established denomination you cannot be a christian.
So if I may take the liberty of rephrasing your question to get at the heart of the matter I would like to state it this way.
To those who beleive in Universalism, would it make a difference to you if June became a christian of a organized denomination? Would she still be a christian in your eyes?
To those in denomination would it make a difference to you if June beleived in Christian Universal salvation? Would she still be a christian in your eyes?
If both parties can truthfully answer NO it would not make a difference than I don't know what all the fighting is about.
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A couple of months ago, another poster who is near and dear to us asked the same question. I'm going to save myself some typing by linking my answer to that previous question: http://www.city-data.com/forum/9188069-post221.html
A couple of months ago, another poster who is near and dear to us asked the same question. I'm going to save myself some typing by linking my answer to that previous question: http://www.city-data.com/forum/9188069-post221.html
I noticed that June closed that one by posting the Beatles "We can work it out". I guess a good theme song for your (excellent) post Blueberry could be "God will work it out".
Almost all the unis I know avoid attaching their faith to any denomination (even the CUA) because denominations tend to label and divide.
Yet, even as a concept it does divide believers (nom = name, denom = to name) so even by saying "I am a Christian Universalist" you have just denominated yourself.
I think the reason so much contention arises in the uni/non-uni debate is that most non-unis (excepting annihilationists of course) believe that if you die in a state of non-belief you will suffer endlessly throughout all eternity.
June, that's a heavy duty - VERY heavy duty belief !!!! And if believed it is going to be fought for (or in the case of hard core Calvinism - simply rubbed in your face!).
On the other side, the unis feel that God's core nature is being terribly slandered by such a horrible concept - that He would create any being with full knowledge of a future of eternal suffering for that being.
So you see the dilemma.
If you were to become a believer and a uni: the non-unis would be happy but also sorry that you were deceived and misleading others concerning eternal destiny.
If you became a believer and a non-uni: the unis would be glad that you found faith but sorry that you thought God would leave any creature wallowing in misery forever (or, in the case of annihilation - that God would put a big eternal kill on 'em).
In my world: We're all a bunch of people "Just tryin' ...to find ...my waaa-aay - the best that I know how"
Know what I mean????
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