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Old 08-05-2009, 11:13 AM
 
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Everything needs to be taken in context.

In context the seven last plagues do complete God's wrath. But in truth, just the opposite it true, the seven last plagues do not complete God's wrath.

In context no one can enter the temple until God's wrath is complete. But in truth people will enter the temple and God's wrath will continue on forever.

In context the LORD will not cast off forever the children of men for their sin. But in truth God will do just the opposite, he will most certainly cast them off forever.

You see, context transforms what is generally true and makes the opposite true. That's how context works. That's why we have to always pay heed to context.

 
Old 08-05-2009, 11:26 AM
 
38 posts, read 41,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
It means the same thing. God's wrath is done. It was "filled up" in those who received it. They got the fill of God's wrath, and now it is ended.


ESV:
Rev 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

CEV:
Rev 15:1 After this, I looked at the sky and saw something else that was strange and important. Seven angels were bringing the last seven terrible troubles. When these are ended, God will no longer be angry.

Young's Literal:
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, because in these was completed the wrath of God

God's wrath is finished. He is no longer angry. It is completed. Its filled up.
It is not the same. It means the plagues are filled up to the maximum with God's wrath. God's wrath cannot be appeased until all sinners(angels and man) are totally destroyed. It is not completed yet.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 11:35 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Presby

finished=teleo in the verse=to bring to an end, to be finished, to complete, to make an end or an accomplishment, to bring something to perfection or its destined goal (Vines/Hebrew Greek Key Word Study)

God bless.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 11:48 AM
 
148 posts, read 206,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Soljia why do you believe in never ending torment/suffering? God bless.
I see it in scripture.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 11:49 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,834,555 times
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Where in scripture Soljia? God bless.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:07 PM
 
148 posts, read 206,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Where in scripture Soljia? God bless.
Many verses but my interpretation.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:33 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,416,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Presby View Post
It is not the same. It means the plagues are filled up to the maximum with God's wrath. God's wrath cannot be appeased until all sinners(angels and man) are totally destroyed. It is not completed yet.
Hi Presby, I didn't mean to imply that God's wrath is finished right now. But it will finish in the future.

Yes they will be filled up to the maximum... and then no more. God's wrath will end one day when there are no more wicked people.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:37 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,416,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soljia View Post
All doctrines have verses that contradict it which is proof that this is from God because if man wrote the bible then we would have fixed and taken out all the contradictions.

Your formula shows the finger prints of man and you undue the supernatural revelation of His word.
What are you saying here is that you believe in a complete contradiction.

I'm not talking about something like the trinity where its difficult for us to comprehend how Jesus is both man and God. (Sure that could be a paradox; I'm sure God will explain it properly to us some day)

I'm talking about the concept of God being angry forever and God not being angry forever. Both cannot be true. You can't just write this off as a "paradox" and claim your doctrine of eternal torment is just fine. It is completely contradictory to what scripture actually teaches.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:39 PM
 
20,328 posts, read 15,696,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The answer is it can't. "Hell" is not eternal because God's wrath ends:

NIV:
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

NLT:
Rev 15:1 Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion.

Amplified:
Rev 15:1 THEN I saw another wonder (sign, token, symbol) in heaven, great and marvelous [warning of events of ominous significance]: There were seven angels bringing seven plagues (afflictions, calamities), which are the last, for with them God's wrath (indignation) is completely expressed [reaches its climax and is ended]


The Amplified version makes it crystal clear.
The book of Revelation primarily deals with Gods wrath being poured out on Israel during the tribulation. The verses you are refering to have to do with the tribulations that Israel will go through during the tribulation. When God is through with pouring out His wrath on Israel the tribulation which is the last 7 remaining years in the dispensation of Israel comes to an end. These verses have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ for salvation then you will spent eternity in, not hell (hades actually), but in the eternal lake of fire into which hell itself will be cast at the end of the millennium. The issue is that if you chosse not to spend eternity in the presence of God by accepting the free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ then you choose to spend eternity separated from God. And the place He has prepared for that eternal separation from Him is the lake of fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
 
Old 08-05-2009, 12:42 PM
 
Location: midwest
508 posts, read 964,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The answer is it can't. "Hell" is not eternal because God's wrath ends:

NIV:
Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God's wrath is completed.

NLT:
Rev 15:1 Then I saw in heaven another marvelous event of great significance. Seven angels were holding the seven last plagues, which would bring God’s wrath to completion.

Amplified:
Rev 15:1 THEN I saw another wonder (sign, token, symbol) in heaven, great and marvelous [warning of events of ominous significance]: There were seven angels bringing seven plagues (afflictions, calamities), which are the last, for with them God's wrath (indignation) is completely expressed [reaches its climax and is ended]

The Amplified version makes it crystal clear.
You're taking something out of it's context but I respect your pursuit of clarity here. Interesting view.... The verses are referring to exact and specific things are they not? Darkness, sores, etc...It is not stated in these verses you've supplied about the eternity of hell's existence. To look at scripture about hell one must look scripture about hell.
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