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Old 08-06-2009, 10:21 AM
 
38 posts, read 41,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Does not mean that the soul is eternally lost because Jesus says if we destroy our souls we'll get it back.
Jesus Christ is the Lord God and the Lord God is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ says - The wages of sin is death.
You say - Jesus says if we destroy our souls we'll get it back.

You are getting deeper and deeper into peril - Revelations 22:18-19.

 
Old 08-06-2009, 11:05 AM
 
38 posts, read 41,404 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by trustinginhim View Post
if what you believe is true then that means that the following are LIES and have no meaning,

Isaiah 40:3-5-3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Luke 3:4 6 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

1 Timothy 2:
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The first 2 passages refer to John the baptist. I don't see it relating to reconsiliation. All flesh may see the salvation of God altogether but that does not mean that they will obtain salvation.

In 1 Timothy 2:4 Paul when using the 'all men' in this verse is refering to all the believers in Timothy's church at that time.
 
Old 08-06-2009, 11:11 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,317,183 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Presby View Post
In 1 Timothy 2:4 Paul when using the 'all men' in this verse is refering to all the believers in Timothy's church at that time.
Actually, you are incorrect.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all humans; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all humans to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ did not give Himself a ransom just for all in Timothy's church at that time.
Neither were there kings and all in authority just in Timothy's church at that time.

It really is "all humans" who ever lived, were living and will be living.
 
Old 08-06-2009, 12:07 PM
 
38 posts, read 41,404 times
Reputation: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually, you are incorrect.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all humans; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all humans to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ did not give Himself a ransom just for all in Timothy's church at that time.
Neither were there kings and all in authority just in Timothy's church at that time.

It really is "all humans" who ever lived, were living and will be living.
[SIZE=2]No, you are incorrect.

Principle of author and recipient implied/common understanding and context.
The book '1 Timothy' was a personal letter written by Paul to Timothy. Thus when one reads the letter, one must understand it's content and context from the point of view of Timothy and the understanding he has with Paul.
 
1 Timothy 1.1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

So when Paul mentioned 'all men' here, Timothy will understand that Paul was refering to the believers in Timothy's church, not the people of the whole world.

For example. A boss of an organisation writes a mail to his assistant and says "Call all to the meeting room on this coming Friday, a 100 grams gold pendant will be given to all men at 10pm. ". His assistant will understand that the 'all men' applies only to all men in his organisation only. He will not call all the men in the world to collect the pendant as this was not the intended and correct meaning of the mail.

On the other hand, an unintended recipient reading the mail must understand that the gold pendant was intended only to be given to all men in that particular organisation only and not all men of the world.

The word 'all' and 'all men' should be understand in similar way in the verses.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

In the above verse, Timothy will have understood 'all men' to be for kings and for all that are in authority at his time. So in principle and context, it is applicable for all kings and for all that are in authority from his present time to the future.

Christ give Himself a ransom only for all the believers in Timothy's church at that time and in principle and context, all believers only throughout time.

If you want to throw this principle and context out of the window then you do so at your own peril.
[/SIZE]
 
Old 08-06-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,744,969 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all humans; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all humans to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ did not give Himself a ransom just for all in Timothy's church at that time.
Neither were there kings and all in authority just in Timothy's church at that time.

It really is "all humans" who ever lived, were living and will be living
I agree, Eusebius. The context of the passage presents this. God is said to be the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy 4:10) and it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. This is very clearly presented in Colossians 1.


Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


1 John 2:
1My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
2and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,



God bless.
 
Old 08-06-2009, 12:26 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,156,098 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
The Question is, how can hell and the punishment of the wicked not be Eternal, since the Great God they Have sinned against is Eternal ?
My goodness beloved sometimes(most times) i swear your logic baffles me.

God is eternal, he punished Israel throughout the old testament. When were his punishments on Israel ever eternal? God punished Nebuchadnezzar for seven years until Nebuchadnezzar finally repented and worshiped God, not for eternity. And King Nebuchadnezzar was one of the most evil, vile men ever to have existed, as bad if not worse than staling and Hitler put together ...
 
Old 08-06-2009, 12:29 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,317,183 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Presby View Post
[SIZE=2]No, you are incorrect.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Principle of author and recipient implied/common understanding and context.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The book '1 Timothy' was a personal letter written by Paul to Timothy. Thus when one reads the letter, one must understand it's content and context from the point of view of Timothy and the understanding he has with Paul. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1 Timothy 1.1 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]So when Paul mentioned 'all men' here, Timothy will understand that Paul was refering to the believers in Timothy's church, not the people of the whole world. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]For example. A boss of an organisation writes a mail to his assistant and says "Call all to the meeting room on this coming Friday, a 100 grams gold pendant will be given to all men at 10pm. ". His assistant will understand that the 'all men' applies only to all men in his organisation only. He will not call all the men in the world to collect the pendant as this was not the intended and correct meaning of the mail. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]On the other hand, an unintended recipient reading the mail must understand that the gold pendant was intended only to be given to all men in that particular organisation only and not all men of the world. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The word 'all' and 'all men' should be understand in similar way in the verses.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]In the above verse, Timothy will have understood 'all men' to be for kings and for all that are in authority at his time. So in principle and context, it is applicable for all kings and for all that are in authority from his present time to the future.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Christ give Himself a ransom only for all the believers in Timothy's church at that time and in principle and context, all believers only throughout time.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]If you want to throw this principle and context out of the window then you do so at your own peril.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]

If you don't believe God is going to save all mankind then you will go to hell forever.

Look at 1 Timothy 4:10

Does it make sense to say: "God is the Saviour of all believers, especially believers"? No.

You need to look at Romans 5:12, 18 & 19. All mankind. It is not talking about what Adam did caused death to enter into only believers.
 
Old 08-06-2009, 12:59 PM
 
148 posts, read 204,688 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Actually, you are incorrect.

1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all humans; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all humans to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ did not give Himself a ransom just for all in Timothy's church at that time.
Neither were there kings and all in authority just in Timothy's church at that time.

It really is "all humans" who ever lived, were living and will be living.
You have flipped context on its side. Verse 1 and verse 4 are not directed at the same people. Verse 1 is directed to unbelievers in general (the lost) and verse 4 is directed to believers.

In verse 1 Paul's desire is for the Ephesian Christians to have compassion for the lost, to understand the depths of their pain and misery, and to come intimately to God pleading for their salvation.
 
Old 08-06-2009, 01:09 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,744,969 times
Reputation: 1323
1 Timothy 1I exhort, then, first of all, there be made supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, for all men:
2for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,
3for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour,
4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
5for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --



1 John 2:
1My little children, these things I write to you, that ye may not sin: and if any one may sin, an advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one,
2and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,


1 Timothy 4:10
10for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.



For this we labour and are reproached, Amen. Thank you, Father. Jesus gave His life for all men.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


How do you read this?

Thanks and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-06-2009 at 01:17 PM..
 
Old 08-06-2009, 01:20 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,317,183 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soljia View Post
You have flipped context on its side. Verse 1 and verse 4 are not directed at the same people. Verse 1 is directed to unbelievers in general (the lost) and verse 4 is directed to believers.

In verse 1 Paul's desire is for the Ephesian Christians to have compassion for the lost, to understand the depths of their pain and misery, and to come intimately to God pleading for their salvation.
Hey, that's a new one! Congratulations on a clever post!

God wants us to pray for all He is going to save. The same all mankind He wants us to pray for are the same all mankind He is going to save because Christ ransomed all mankind.
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