U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 08-26-2009, 10:35 AM
 
1,467 posts, read 849,703 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Many people like the writer of lamentations start out by blaming God for everything that comes into their life. Today they would say things like why, oh why did you do this to me God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Then they recall that the Lords mercy is new every morning and out the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good.

When they recall that out of the mouth of the most high proccedeth not evil and good they come to realize that it was their enemy that chased them sore like a bird without cause, their enemy that cast stones upon them and not God.

Basically they quit blaming God for all the evil that has happened to them and start to blame who should have been blamed from the beginning, their enemy.
I do see a shift from hoplessness to hope. I do not see them "blaming God". I see them mourning their circumstances, feeling hopeless, acknowledging that the evil justly came from God due to their sin and then contemplating God's mercy and rediscovering hope.

Can you show me where they are blaming God in the book of Lamentations?

Quote:
But according to your understanding we are in the predicament because God intended us to be in that predicament.
Yes, but He also intends us to escape this predicament.

Quote:
Therefore, what hope is there of escape in prayer, in trust and striving to obey if God does not intend us to obey anyway?
The same hope that a sick person has when he prays today and is not instantly healed by tommorow.

Quote:
All the commandments of God mean nothing if He intends for us to do the exact opposite of what He tells us to do.
If you a priori conclude that God did not intend man to sin, then of course you will arrive at that conclusion. If you do not a priori conclude that, then you consider the possibility that God did intend man to sin. If you consider that as a real possibility, then you realize that God must issue a commandment in that case to make known the sin as being sin. So the commandment is not pointless, it is absolutely necessary.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-26-2009 at 10:49 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-26-2009, 10:39 AM
 
1,467 posts, read 849,703 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I agree it was to save mankind. Was it to save Anyone else?
Assuming Satan is a being, yes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 10:41 AM
 
1,467 posts, read 849,703 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Bob your not hearing me, GOD DOES NOT SEND EVIL, nothing in God is evil, therefore evil cannot come from God.
Who made the rule about the blessing and the curse?
  • Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. 6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
According to Lamentations, the underlined part is GOOD although it contains an experience of evil within it. You are calling the underlined part EVIL.

And what form did the trials of the righteous take in the NT? They died in their trials. Jesus said "you shall drink my cup". Hebrews says something like "You have not YET resisted sin to the point of blood". Such are the trials of the righteous in the NT. Now, who tries the righteous? The LORD does.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-26-2009 at 10:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Canada
3,538 posts, read 1,347,405 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:

I do see a shift from hoplessness to hope. I do not see them "blaming God". I see them mourning their circumstances, feeling hopeless, acknowledging that the evil justly came from God due to their sin and then contemplating God's mercy and rediscovering hope.

Can you show me where they are blaming God in the book of Lamentations?


The first 16 or so verse is the writer blaming God for what befell him.

myQuote:
But according to your understanding we are in the predicament because God intended us to be in that predicament.

Quote:
Yes, but He also intends us to escape this predicament.


And how are we to know that? If He tells us to be obedient but intends us to disobey anyway how do you know that He intends us to escape this predicament?

The only answer you can have is because the scriptures tells us He intends it, but they also tell us not to disobey Him to begin with and yet according to you God intended man to disobey anyway.

So why should we believe anything God tells us?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Canada
3,538 posts, read 1,347,405 times
Reputation: 213

myQuote:
All the commandments of God mean nothing if He intends for us to do the exact opposite of what He tells us to do.

Quote:
If you a priori conclude that God did not intend man to sin, then of course you will arrive at that conclusion. If you do not a priori conclude that, then you consider the possibility that God did intend man to sin. If you consider that as a real possibility, then you realize that God must issue a commandment in that case to make known the sin as being sin. So the commandment is not pointless, it is absolutely necessary.


Yes the commandment was given to reveal sin (sin was in the world before the commandment, but was not imputed unto man until man became united with satan) not so man would become sinful.

Tares are sin, where do tares come from?

The devil.

Why was the commandment given? To reveal the sin of the devil.

Originally Posted by pneuma
file:///C:/Users/Scott/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif (broken link)
I agree it was to save mankind. Was it to save Anyone else?

Quote:
Assuming Satan is a being, yes.


Correct, and scripture tells us

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly placesmight be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

What was the mystery that was hid in God from the beginning? That unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

So why did God create man? For the salvation of the angelic.

But instead of man doing what God told Him to do, man became united with satan and his horde and was cast out of the heavenly realm into this world of sin and death.

For what purpose?

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Now you might say but God still sent them to satan so God is still responsible for what happens, but God warned Adam what would happen if he disobeyed Him, and Adam disobeyed Him anyway, thus Adam made his bed in hell of his own choosing and God gave him over to his own hearts desire.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 11:41 AM
 
1,467 posts, read 849,703 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
The first 16 or so verse is the writer blaming God for what befell him.
Not in the sense of God doing something unjustly or without due cause. He is simply stating the facts, that ee is sitting under God's wrath. The writer still holds to that truth even after he reconsiders and has hope.


- though He cause grief
- the Lord will not cast off forever (accepts that the LORD will cast off)
- Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins? (admits that God will punish for sins, which the first 15 or so verses describe what said punishment is like)

Quote:
And how are we to know that? If He tells us to be obedient but intends us to disobey anyway how do you know that He intends us to escape this predicament?
Because Christ came to take away the sins of the world. Shut up all mankind in their own unbelief so that He could have mercy on all.

Quote:
The only answer you can have is because the scriptures tells us He intends it, but they also tell us not to disobey Him to begin with and yet according to you God intended man to disobey anyway.
Quote:
So why should we believe anything God tells us?
Case 1: God intended us to obey His commandment -- God would have given the commandment
Case 2: God intended us to disobey His commandment -- God would have given the commandment.

So in Case 1 (your belief) and Case 2 (my belief) God gives a commandment. So God giving a commandment does not prove your belief or my belief.

God planned to harden pharoah's heart so that pharoah would not let Israel go. Yet God kept giving commanding pharoah to let Israel go, and kept hardening his heart not to let them go. This proves the existence of Case 2 in scripture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Canada
3,538 posts, read 1,347,405 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:
Not in the sense of God doing something unjustly or without due cause. He is simply stating the facts, that ee is sitting under God's wrath. The writer still holds to that truth even after he reconsiders and has hope.

- though He cause grief
- the Lord will not cast off forever (accepts that the LORD will cast off)
- Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins? (admits that God will punish for sins, which the first 15 or so verses describe what said punishment is like)


But who is doing the punishing for the sins? Those Scriptures say God gave them over to their enemies/satan for the destruction of the flesh.

Quote:
God planned to harden pharoah's heart so that pharoah would not let Israel go. Yet God kept giving commanding pharoah to let Israel go, and kept hardening his heart not to let them go. This proves the existence of Case 2 in scripture.


God foreknew Pharaoh would harden his heart by the commandment, God did not plan it that way. And Pharoah was not a son of God who walked with God daily, his sin would not be unto death, whereas Adams was.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Canada
3,538 posts, read 1,347,405 times
Reputation: 213
myQuote:
And how are we to know that? If He tells us to be obedient but intends us to disobey anyway how do you know that He intends us to escape this predicament?
Quote:
Because Christ came to take away the sins of the world. Shut up all mankind in their own unbelief so that He could have mercy on all.
How do we know Christ takes away the sin of the word?

If we cannot trust Gods word in one point why should we trust it in another?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 12:23 PM
 
1,467 posts, read 849,703 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
But who is doing the punishing for the sins? Those Scriptures say God gave them over to their enemies/satan for the destruction of the flesh.
God was. That would be like saying, who punishes the criminal, the justice system, or the guy who locks his jail cell every night?

Quote:
God foreknew Pharaoh would harden his heart by the commandment, God did not plan it that way. And Pharoah was not a son of God who walked with God daily, his sin would not be unto death, whereas Adams was.
I think God did plan it, since God stated that exact plan ahead of time. Even supposing some way off looking at it that God did not plan it, God still repeated gave commands and then hardened against those commands.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-26-2009, 12:26 PM
 
1,467 posts, read 849,703 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
How do we know Christ takes away the sin of the word? If we cannot trust Gods word in one point why should we trust it in another?
We can trust God's word, even the part that says God hardens whom He will. Hardens either means cause to disobey or cause to remain in disobedience.

Nothing about my belief makes me find God's word to not be trustworthy.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-26-2009 at 12:34 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $79,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top