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Old 08-07-2009, 01:20 PM
 
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primarily the fallacious argument tentmaker.org uses through rationalization. A common tactic used by cults. Atheists use it to prove God doesn't exist.

Fighting for the Faith: Refuting "Christian Universalism"

Segment 4
http://podcast.fightingforthefaith.c.../F4F031709.mp3

Last edited by Soljia; 08-07-2009 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 08-07-2009, 01:27 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,816,000 times
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The belief in the eventual restoration of all through Jesus Christ to God is not a cult, Soljia. It was the belief of many if not the majority in the early church and it is held by many believers in various denominations. It is not a new age belief. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 08-07-2009 at 02:17 PM..
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Old 08-07-2009, 02:48 PM
 
15,004 posts, read 7,534,340 times
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How do you define "cult", Soljia?

This might help you to understand what is meant by the word:

What is the Definition of a Cult?


To sum the article up for you:


"A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers."

Mind control usually is exerted through one or more of the following:

*A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members
*A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority
*A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group.


None of the above apply to Christian Universalism.
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,552,547 times
Reputation: 4461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
How do you define "cult", Soljia?

This might help you to understand what is meant by the word:

What is the Definition of a Cult?


To sum the article up for you:


"A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers."

Mind control usually is exerted through one or more of the following:

*A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members
*A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority
*A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group.


None of the above apply to Christian Universalism.
If "mind control" is the definition, what do you call replacing the entire carnal mind with the mind of Christ?
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Old 08-07-2009, 03:08 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,198,849 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
How do you define "cult", Soljia?

This might help you to understand what is meant by the word:

What is the Definition of a Cult?


To sum the article up for you:


"A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers."

Mind control usually is exerted through one or more of the following:

*A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members
*A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority
*A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group.


None of the above apply to Christian Universalism.
Yeah, the truth be known, traditional establishment Christianity has been the very definition of a cult for the past 1500 years or more. Since the faith of Christ was incorporated as the state religion of Rome.

Some people have no knowledge of Church history and are simply relying on their indoctrination and programing to have an opinion instead of actually doing any real research for themselves.

In my mind the majority of Christians today refute the power of the Cross and the power of Christs blood for salvation. They think their belief is what saves them, not Christs sacrifice.
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:12 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,707,321 times
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I will finally draw myself back from the quarrels here about that subject, but these verses alone say everything according to my opinion:

1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:30 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,165 posts, read 19,971,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I will finally draw myself back from the quarrels here about that subject, but these verses alone say everything according to my opinion:

1 Timothy 4:10

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 Corinthians 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Great closing statement , what is there to argue about after being presented these scriptures.

I really think the way forward for UR is not to argue it's defence but to talk about it as if it is the accepted truth , after all the heresy of the doctrine of ET was so accepted without any major rebbutal.
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Old 08-08-2009, 02:19 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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For those that didn't bother listening to the audio, I have summed up the section on CU here.

He has actually went through some of the web pages on tentmaker.org, but unfortunately he didn't understand what he was reading and uses many old arguments ie. "out of context" and "no verses that say universalism", eternal means eternal... etc.

The speaker starts off with saying, "if you are going to make a doctrine that says all will eventually be saved, you must have a verse that says all will be eventually saved. Unfortunately there are none."

Hm. I guess he didn't notice 1 Tim 2:4, 1 Tim 4:10, Titus 2:11, Eph 1:10, Col 1:20, etc.

He then goes on through Matt 23 where it asks how some will escape hell (verse 33), and then goes on to show how verse 37 shows some are not willing to come. Thus man's free will triumphs over God's will.

Then he goes on with Matt 25: the parable of the virgins - 5 are shut out, therefore they are not saved. Therefore he believes that is proof that not everyone is saved because not everyone gets into the wedding feast.

But he makes the same mistakes most critics of Christian Universalism make. These points have been debunked before. Some will not make it into the reign of the Kingdom. They will not receive aionios life, they will receive aionios correction instead. But as usual this misrepresented as eternal hell.

It seems like the speaker only took a few statements from tentmaker "all will be saved" and proceeded to debunk that using traditional ET arguments. But what he doesn't realize is that all of the traditional ET beliefs have been debunked at tentmaker and many other sites.

Other arguments the speaker brings up:
- people are cast into outer darkness (conscious torment), therefore not all are saved
- the sheep and the goats show not all will be saved
- the lake of fire shows (torment forever) not all will be saved
- "hell" is unquenchable fire - therefore its for eternity (never mind gehenna)
- Luke 16 is used as documented proof of hell
- he points out "eternal fire" as proof of ETERNAL fire. He even mentions "aionios" means eternal.
- and of course his "clincher" Matt 25:46 - "eternal" life & "eternal" punishment - therfore duration must be the same.

Sigh. Did he not read anything about the aion/aionios mistranslation? How about the hell/hades/sheol/gehenna mistranslation?

Of course his tradition ET teachings have blinded him, but all of these arguments have been researched, debunked, and explained on the very site he references (tentmaker.org), if only he would have studied it a bit more. Its really basic stuff to study this if you want to understand UR.

It seems he believes God did die for the world, but not all will believe, therefore many will get eternal fire, torture, torment, punishement forever. Apparently man triumphs over God. Its almost like


Sigh.

Do people think Christian Universalists are stupid? Lost sheep, deceived by the devil, and now will be thrown into the very hell they no longer believe in?

Do ETers actually think Christian Universalists have never considered all the arguments that were presented by this speaker?

The only way I could believe in Christian Universalism is if I had satisfactory answers to all of these arguments that have been raised. This is also why I can no longer believe eternal torment because there are too many verses that cannot support it.

Scripture preaches universal reconciliation for all. But most people don't want to research the truth and would rather believe traditions of men. That's what this speaker showed me. He didn't research UR at all, even though he had a good reference (tentmaker.org), and instead repeats the same old lies that UR debunks.

Peace.
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:01 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,816,000 times
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Quote:
Do people think Christian Universalists are stupid? Lost sheep, deceived by the devil, and now will be thrown into the very hell they no longer believe in?

Do ETers actually think Christian Universalists have never considered all the arguments that were presented by this speaker?

The only way I could believe in Christian Universalism is if I had satisfactory answers to all of these arguments that have been raised. This is also why I can no longer believe eternal torment because there are too many verses that cannot support it.

Scripture preaches universal reconciliation for all. But most people don't want to research the truth and would rather believe traditions of men. That's what this speaker showed me. He didn't research UR at all, even though he had a good reference (tentmaker.org), and instead repeats the same old lies that UR debunks.

Peace.
Agree, legoman. I know that I prayed, researched, studied, considered all arguments several years, even going on discussion forums to hear arguments. All of this lead to the realization that UR is presented in the scriptures. God bless.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:38 AM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,404,833 times
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BTW his last segment 5 on the audio is pretty interesting. He talks about understanding the bible and what the heck the purpose is and such.

He gives the analogy of the movie The Sixth Sense. In that movie, there is a bunch of stuff that happens, that might not quite make sense until the ending is revealed. Then when you go back and watch the movie again, it all makes sense now because you know what was happening. Things you didn`t even notice now have greater meaning. There was a key you needed.

Same in the bible. There is a key to understanding the bible and God`s plan. IMHO I believe that key is realizing that God will eventually save all.
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