Who Cause the Fall Of Lucifer God Or Jesus? (Christians, Lord, Savior)

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by mb64282

wow, you should have a column, good post.

Thank you

God bless

[ShanaBrown]

ok you did not say they were all the same, but as we were speaking of bara and not yatsar I woundered why you would highlight yatsar.

Because, Pnuema:

" I agree that in the context of the passage, the word is referring to what God has made, prepared, formed and in consideration of the other words in the passage referring to this. God bless

Gods word is a sword correct?

What does scripture say God does with His word/sword?

Does it not say it devides

Cut down makes more sense out of bara than any other translation given of that word.

For God is always forming/yatsar by cutting down/out the old man within us

It doesn't make sense to me in this passage, Pnuema in consideration of the subject being discussed and in light of the other related words in the passage referring to the subject.

5 I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, I gird thee, and thou hast not known Me. 6 So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, 7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.' 8 Drop, ye heavens, from above, And clouds do cause righteousness to flow, Earth openeth, and they are fruitful, Salvation and righteousness spring up together, I, Jehovah, have prepared it. 9 Wo [to] him who is striving with his Former, (A potsherd with potsherds of the ground!) Doth clay say to its Framer, `What dost thou?' And thy work, `He hath no hands?' 10 Wo [to] him who is saying to a father, `What dost thou beget?' Or to a wife, `What dost thou bring forth? 11 Thus said Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel, and his Former: Ask Me of the things coming concerning My sons, Yea, concerning the work of My hands, ye command Me.' 12 I made earth, and man on it prepared, I -- My hands stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have stirred him up in righteousness, And all his ways I make straight (YLT)



We'll have to agree to disagree on this. God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

you said:Hotep, you never merely have one choice in a matter. I could choose to drink neither of the cups of milk, or I could spill it on the ground, or I could throw it in someone's face.

I did not state this, Hotep, but I agree with it.

if you chose to spill the cup of milk on the ground.
is that free will?


if so thats what i was saying, you will still have free will in heaven,
we will still have choice.

Choice to me is not the same a free will. Free will means that we are free in relation to causation and influencence, but I believe that something always causes or influences the choices that we make. God bless.

[ScarletWren]

Originally Posted by Hotep

you said:Hotep, you never merely have one choice in a matter. I could choose to drink neither of the cups of milk, or I could spill it on the ground, or I could throw it in someone's face.


if you chose to spill the cup of milk on the ground.
is that free will?


if so thats what i was saying, you will still have free will in heaven,
we will still have choice.

I never said we don't have choices. We have choices all the time. But there are causes that influence us to make the choice we make. My point is if we have free will in heaven, being able to choose anyway we think, what would stop someone from rebelling against God or doing something that is not 'good'? What has been done to us to stop that process of choosing bad choices. As I said, there is never just one possible choice even with 2 glasses of milk in front of us. We do think.....I believe we learn from our bad choices and the bad choices of others around us. But I think we make those choices based on what has happened to us in our life, our environment, our parents, our friends, even HOW we think and we did not create our own brains to think a certain way. The creator does that.

Anyway what has happened in 'heaven' to us to stop us thinking of something evil, in even a small degree. If you have freewill in heaven, how can you be sure that no one will rebel and the whole thing start over again? Or if the possibility exists that our freewill was changed to insure we never rebel, then we really don't have freewill and do you think that's a horrid thought? Would you then be a robot?

I believe that the fall was planned so that we would learn good from evil, grow and mature in wisdom by making wrong decisions. I don't believe man was made perfect for he did not know good from evil. I don't believe he had much rule because how can someone who doesn't know wrong from right be a good ruler. I believe that the first section of creation was prophetic, that it isn't complete in man's time yet. That the second part is the beginning of the description of how God is making man in God's image. Christ became perfect through suffering and how could he have suffered if there were not evil for him to overcome?

We have choices are we are able to see the affects of bad choices and lack of love. But someone has to play the bad guy. Just as any good book has the antihero and a situation to overcome. When everyone has been refined in the purging fires of God's trials and tribulations, we will then be in God's image and true sons. I know not everyone can accept this. But if God just let us all do whatever we want, He would NOT be in control. He might know what was gonna happen but he would have no control. And I believe God has control of everything. But I'm not a robot. I may be manipulated into certain choices (and believe me even believing how I do I resist and rant and rave when things do not go the way I want, lol, it's just how I am) but I am able to see how a different choice WOULD have been better, and yet, in the end, I learned more from the wrong choice.

Many suffer and have their lives cut short because of the Plan of God, but He can resurrect and make everything right at a future time. He can dry every tear and cause great joy to come from great tragedy and I believe all victims will rejoice in the end even with their tormentor.

To me, that's the GOOD NEWS.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by mb64282

How can something bad happen in heaven? We are suppose to be happy in heaven, why would an angel go around saying he is better than God? Do you think we feed the Devil? I know we can feed the devil within or the angel within but is there a force outside of us as individuals that is fed as well by our actions? Scary stuff. I mean God is everywhere and this huge force I feel like that is within everything and everywhere....is the devil like that or is the devil just the 'dark' within us? Could God forgive Satan? Too many questions I guess.

All the right questions IMO.

[noland123]

Lucifer caused the fall himself,he was arrogant thought he was better than God,did not want to serve Him and therefore along with one-third of the angels was cast out of Heaven.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

ok you did not say they were all the same, but as we were speaking of bara and not yatsar I woundered why you would highlight yatsar.

Because, Pnuema:









It doesn't make sense to me in this passage, Pnuema in consideration of the subject being discussed and in light of the other related words in the passage referring to the subject.

5 I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, Except Me there is no God, I gird thee, and thou hast not known Me. 6 So that they know from the rising of the sun, And from the west, that there is none besides Me, I [am] Jehovah, and there is none else, 7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.' 8 Drop, ye heavens, from above, And clouds do cause righteousness to flow, Earth openeth, and they are fruitful, Salvation and righteousness spring up together, I, Jehovah, have prepared it. 9 Wo [to] him who is striving with his Former, (A potsherd with potsherds of the ground!) Doth clay say to its Framer, `What dost thou?' And thy work, `He hath no hands?' 10 Wo [to] him who is saying to a father, `What dost thou beget?' Or to a wife, `What dost thou bring forth? 11 Thus said Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel, and his Former: Ask Me of the things coming concerning My sons, Yea, concerning the work of My hands, ye command Me.' 12 I made earth, and man on it prepared, I -- My hands stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have stirred him up in righteousness, And all his ways I make straight (YLT)



We'll have to agree to disagree on this. God bless.

Ok, but I can see how it fits very easily.

[pneuma]

I never said we don't have choices. We have choices all the time. But there are causes that influence us to make the choice we make.

1 Peter 5:2
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Constraint

317 anagkastos { an-ang-kas-toce’}

from a derivative of 315;; adv

AV - by constraint 1; 1

GK - 339 { ajnagkastw`" }

• by force or constrain

ROOTED in

315 anagkazo { an-ang-kad’-zo}

from 318; TDNT - 1:344,55; v

AV - compel 5, constrain 4; 9

GK - 337 { ajnagkavzw }

1) to necessitate, compel, drive to, constrain
1a) by force, threats, etc.
1b) by permission, entreaties, etc.
1c) by other means

Strong’s Enhanced Lexicon

My point is if we have free will in heaven, being able to choose anyway we think, what would stop someone from rebelling against God or doing something that is not 'good'?

Because all the works of the devil will have been destroyed.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

but I believe that something always causes or influences the choices that we make.

Can that include our own poor judgment?

[ShanaBrown]

Hi, I believe that something influences our own poor judgment. God bless.