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Old 10-09-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of the SPIRIT is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
My point exactly. The gift of the spirit is on those who believe.


rodgertutt,

Universal salvation is applied to all mankind, because of the belief that Adam was the first biological man, in which archelogical evidence has clearly revealed that mankind did not begin a mere 6000 years ago. If this were the case, then our God is a God of deception, since most of the unbelieving and believing world have been given the evidence through the revelation of His creation through archeology, that man did NOT begin his walk on earth 6000 years ago, as per the geneological record of Matthew and Luke tying Christ to Adam. Adam was what is understood among many Christians in the world, to be the 1st man in covenantal relationship with God. Whether his created being was exnihilo, or that God appointed functionality to a man in whom He named Adam, is besides the point. But what is the point, is that he was the first man in covenant, and that through him, Israel was born, in covenant. Just as Christ came to save the kosmos, under the precept and predicated context of covenant while conversing with Nicodemus, it was the covenantal demise that was disannulled, as per Isaiah 28:15, and not mankind in general. It si the covenantal relationship that was restored, and not mankind in general. It is through faith in Christ, that one enters into covenant, therefore that covenant no longer a covenant with death, but of life. Because of this premise Universal salvation is an error, just as many doctrines of the faith are, believing that Adam was the first man on earth. Universal application to the covenant yes, is a reality, but not in general onto all mankind whilst in defiance or denial. All men are not saved unless they believe on Him.

Blessings.

 
Old 10-09-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,529,208 times
Reputation: 216
Default All men will believe on jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
rodgertutt,
All men are not saved unless they believe on Him.
Acording to the Bible, as pointed out in detail by J. Preston Eby's exposition, sooner or later, all men WILL believe on Jesus and be saved.

GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED - 1Timothy 2:4
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED: I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; God's Oath - To Save All; The Justification Of All Mankind; Mercy Upon All; Why Teach Salvation For All?

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in my last post (page 14, post #140) that that is exactly what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches that God is like.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-09-2010 at 11:28 AM.. Reason: addition
 
Old 10-09-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Acording to the Bible, as pointed out in detail by J. Preston Eby's exposition, sooner or later, all men WILL believe on Jesus and be saved.

GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED - 1Timothy 2:4
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN BE SAVED: I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; God's Oath - To Save All; The Justification Of All Mankind; Mercy Upon All; Why Teach Salvation For All?

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in my last post (page 14, post #140) that that is exactly what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches that God is like.
rodegertutt,

I don't believe in either of the doctrines you propose. Conditional Immortaltiy is not annihilation. Conditional immortality clearly states that immortaltity, that is, having a spirit to begin with, is given, upon belief in Christ. Those without that, have no spirit. They are dead. God does not annihilate something that isn't there to begin with. It is a common misunderstanding among people that they ascribe CI to Annihilationism.
They are not related in any way. Annihilationism, as I said earlier, states that mankind, whether in belief or not, has a spirit. This is untrue, and not Biblical. Man is dead without Christ. Simple as that.

The Old Creation returns to the dust.
The New Creation is alive in Christ.

Blessings.
 
Old 10-09-2010, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,529,208 times
Reputation: 216
Default No one will cease to exist

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
rodgertutt,
God does not annihilate something that isn't there to begin with.
When I look in the mirror it is obvious to me that there is "something there to begin with."

No one is going to cease to exist.
Sooner or later everyone is going to be saved.

WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (i.e. cease to exist)
chapters three and four
Lighthouse Library International - ALL IN ALL, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

No.

Sooner or later all unbelievers will believe and be saved
 
Old 10-09-2010, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
When I look in the mirror it is obvious to me that there is "something there to begin with."

No one is going to cease to exist.
Sooner or later everyone is going to be saved.

WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (i.e. cease to exist)
chapters three and four
Lighthouse Library International - ALL IN ALL, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

No.

Sooner or later all unbelievers will believe and be saved
rodgertutt,

I will quote Jerimiah for you.

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

1 Tim 2:4-6 has been dealt with on so many levels and UR cannot, beyond a shadow of a doubt, deal with the evidence all over the scriptures, to suppliment their case. Not everyone will be saved. Christ was clear, and so was Paul. Salvation is predicated upon belief in Christ while you are in the body of the flesh, and that flesh must be put to death with Him. Once you have expired and lived your life, you can no longer be put to death in Him, and be raised in Him. The ability to place faith in Him, has ceased to be effective. I am sorry for your misunderstanding, but your beliefs do not stand up against the scriptures. It is simply not so.

However, since you are a Christian, and you believe in Christ, when you look in the mirror, you do see something, and that is a new creation.
Because you have a spirit. You were given that when you confessed your faith in Him.

Blessings.
 
Old 10-09-2010, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,529,208 times
Reputation: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
rodgertutt,
I am sorry for your misunderstanding, but your beliefs do not stand up against the scriptures. Blessings.
I think they do, and here is why.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"
What Does it Mean to "Perish?"

Again, as it does most of the time in these debates, it come down to the argument,
"I think my Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars."

Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-09-2010 at 12:01 PM.. Reason: correction
 
Old 10-09-2010, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,529,208 times
Reputation: 216
BTW sciotamicks, do you know of anyone else in the world who believes like you do?
Do you belong to a group of people who believe like you do, or are you the only one as far as you know?
Just wondering.
 
Old 10-09-2010, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,203,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I think they do, and here is why.

"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"
What Does it Mean to "Perish?"

Again, as it does most of the time in these debates, it come down to the argument,
"I think my Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars."
I never quoted any Greek scholars, as the scriptures, in any language, rejects what you propose, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
BTW sciotamicks, do you know of anyone else in the world who believes like you do?
Do you belong to a group of people who believe like you do, or are you the only one as far as you know?
Just wondering.
Many.....you can begin here in regards to Adam:

Historical Genesis: From Adam To Abraham

As far as conditional immortality...well...that's everywhere. Just google it!

Blessings.
 
Old 10-09-2010, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,529,208 times
Reputation: 216
Default The savior of everyone who needs saving

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
I never quoted any Greek scholars, as the scriptures, in any language, rejects what you propose, Unfortunately.
No, I don't think it does.

I see no essential difference between what you believe and annihilation because they are both cessation of existence. You say we don't even exist in the first place. I think that is silly.

Anyone who is interested can read this exposition on why I believe the Bible teaches the salvation of everyone who needs salvation.

A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

So is there a name for the group of people who believe like you do?
 
Old 10-09-2010, 12:51 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,269,124 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
rodegertutt,

I don't believe in either of the doctrines you propose. Conditional Immortaltiy is not annihilation. Conditional immortality clearly states that immortaltity, that is, having a spirit to begin with, is given, upon belief in Christ. Those without that, have no spirit. They are dead. God does not annihilate something that isn't there to begin with. It is a common misunderstanding among people that they ascribe CI to Annihilationism.
They are not related in any way. Annihilationism, as I said earlier, states that mankind, whether in belief or not, has a spirit. This is untrue, and not Biblical. Man is dead without Christ. Simple as that.

The Old Creation returns to the dust.
The New Creation is alive in Christ.

Blessings.

Acts 24:14-15

However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:2
And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

John 5:28-29
Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.




It appears to me to me that you do not believe what the scriptures clearly teach.

According to the scriptures the resurrection is for all people, including those that do not believe. There is a resurrection of eonian life, and there is the resurrection of eonian judgment.





Peace ...
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