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Old 08-12-2009, 11:12 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,274,183 times
Reputation: 46
There is no greater evil than sinning against God..

 
Old 08-12-2009, 11:19 PM
 
2,192 posts, read 2,502,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
There is no greater evil than sinning against God..
Kind of like what you do all day by judging everyone and telling them they will burn because God hates them and they werent chosen. Gotchya!
 
Old 08-12-2009, 11:49 PM
 
320 posts, read 245,220 times
Reputation: 53
Seek God for understanding and wisdom beloved57 and It might help to talk to your pastor or see your church counsellors to pray for you!

grace and peace to you!
 
Old 08-12-2009, 11:56 PM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,274,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
Kind of like what you do all day by judging everyone and telling them they will burn because God hates them and they werent chosen. Gotchya!
You put man before God..
 
Old 08-13-2009, 12:16 AM
 
Location: in here, out there
1,653 posts, read 2,042,552 times
Reputation: 2068
I almost thought you were one of those Baptists complaining about Unreal Tournament.
 
Old 08-13-2009, 12:48 AM
 
Location: NC
10,214 posts, read 8,184,379 times
Reputation: 1182
Quote:
Exclusivists don't claim that God is unable to accomplish His purposes; we merely claim that His justice, which is solely intended on wiping out sin, must take precedent over His love.
Where is His justice said to eternal torment, Nero? What are the wages of sin? How can His justice take precedence over His love. All proceeds from His love because He is love. God is just but is He ever said to be justice? If His justice takes precedence over His love, no one would be saved. It is because of the mercy and love of God for us that He gave His only begotten Son.


Quote:

If someone refuses to repent, if they refuse to turn from their sin and choose to embrace it instead then God, having to exact justice, must bring that person into judgement; a sentence must be carried out (Hebrews 9:27), which states that everyone must die once and then face judgement.
Where are we said that the judgment is eternal torment?

Quote:
In regards to the last part, I must respectfully disagree. ET is the means for God to remove sin from the world; the people who go there are those who refused to repent and turn away from their sin. Therefore, God respects their decision (a sign of His love) and punishes them according to their actions in life (which indicates His sovereignty over all of creation for only He is capable of casting judgement) and He allows them to spend eternity apart from Him in a place where they will know what it is like to be seperated from God without any chance of restoration, thus is the sin of man punished and God's need for justice to be fulfilled.
How is sin removed from the world when it is allowed to exist for all of eternity, it's power having never been destroyed? Here we will have people remaining separated from God, remaining His enemies for all of eternity and the power of sin remain in effect for all of eternity. But Jesus came to destroy (not merely confine to one portion of the universe) the works of satan. God bless.
 
Old 08-13-2009, 07:44 AM
 
352 posts, read 314,196 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Where is His justice said to eternal torment, Nero? What are the wages of sin? How can His justice take precedence over His love. All proceeds from His love because He is love. God is just but is He ever said to be justice? If His justice takes precedence over His love, no one would be saved. It is because of the mercy and love of God for us that He gave His only begotten Son.
God is all loving, God is all justice; the question is then how can He claim to have perfect justice and then grant every human on earth, regardless of the life they have led, to enter into the kingdom to enjoy being with Him. Is it really so shocking of a notion? Lucifer, God's most perfect angel, lived in His very presence and he still was able to enter into sin, which, according to Revelations, has led him to an eternal separation from God (debatable among universalists). If God is able to punish one of His greatest creations so harshly, how much more is He willing to do against us lower beings? Aren't we just as capable of being hardened to sin as Lucifer was? Can we not live our lives without any regard for the immoral things we do to ourselves and others? I think we are that messed up. Only through accepting the blood that God has given to us can we find cleansing from our sinful flesh. Throughout Scripture, God makes it quite clear that only the meek, the humble and holy will ever see the kingdom while the fornicators, murderers, theives, liars etc etc will never see God or His kingdom. Revelations: those not found in the Lamb's book of Life are cast down into the lake of fire, the same location that Lucifer will be cast down into upon the completion of God's plan. I think you and I have discussed this before, why didn't Revelations indicate any notion of eventual restoration? Why didn't it make mention that the people not found in the Lamb's book of Life would eventually rise from the lake to be in God's presence? Furthermore, why do Jesus' apocalyptic parables not make any mention of it either.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Where are we said that the judgment is eternal torment?
Where does the Bible directly tell us that there will be an eventual restoration? See questions above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
How is sin removed from the world when it is allowed to exist for all of eternity, it's power having never been destroyed? Here we will have people remaining separated from God, remaining His enemies for all of eternity and the power of sin remain in effect for all of eternity. But Jesus came to destroy (not merely confine to one portion of the universe) the works of satan. God bless.
Throughout the Bible, God makes it quite clear that He never destroys anything that He brought into creation; all was perfect in the beginning and to destroy it would mean God has made a mistake in the first place. God won't destroy mankind, but He can't allow those who have rejected His Son and the Holy Spirit to live in His presence either, as part of His justice they must be seperated because God won't destroy them. How is sin removed from the world when it is allowed to exist for all of eternity? After the end, sin will no longer have any influence on those who have accepted God, like on earth, His very Spirit will make us incapable of sinning ever again. Those who have become hardened in their sin must accept the consequences of their actions. They must see how sin has affected their lives.

I know we don't see eye to eye Shana, but I do respect you for your beliefs. Please don't take any offense to what I say; it isn't my intention to offend you. God bless you Shana.
 
Old 08-13-2009, 08:01 AM
 
5,425 posts, read 2,519,327 times
Reputation: 427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
God is all loving, God is all justice; the question is then how can He claim to have perfect justice and then grant every human on earth, regardless of the life they have led, to enter into the kingdom to enjoy being with Him. Is it really so shocking of a notion? Lucifer, God's most perfect angel, lived in His very presence and he still was able to enter into sin, which, according to Revelations, has led him to an eternal separation from God (debatable among universalists). If God is able to punish one of His greatest creations so harshly, how much more is He willing to do against us lower beings? Aren't we just as capable of being hardened to sin as Lucifer was? Can we not live our lives without any regard for the immoral things we do to ourselves and others? I think we are that messed up. Only through accepting the blood that God has given to us can we find cleansing from our sinful flesh. Throughout Scripture, God makes it quite clear that only the meek, the humble and holy will ever see the kingdom while the fornicators, murderers, theives, liars etc etc will never see God or His kingdom. Revelations: those not found in the Lamb's book of Life are cast down into the lake of fire, the same location that Lucifer will be cast down into upon the completion of God's plan. I think you and I have discussed this before, why didn't Revelations indicate any notion of eventual restoration? Why didn't it make mention that the people not found in the Lamb's book of Life would eventually rise from the lake to be in God's presence? Furthermore, why do Jesus' apocalyptic parables not make any mention of it either.





Where does the Bible directly tell us that there will be an eventual restoration? See questions above.





Throughout the Bible, God makes it quite clear that He never destroys anything that He brought into creation; all was perfect in the beginning and to destroy it would mean God has made a mistake in the first place. God won't destroy mankind, but He can't allow those who have rejected His Son and the Holy Spirit to live in His presence either, as part of His justice they must be seperated because God won't destroy them. How is sin removed from the world when it is allowed to exist for all of eternity? After the end, sin will no longer have any influence on those who have accepted God, like on earth, His very Spirit will make us incapable of sinning ever again. Those who have become hardened in their sin must accept the consequences of their actions. They must see how sin has affected their lives.

I know we don't see eye to eye Shana, but I do respect you for your beliefs. Please don't take any offense to what I say; it isn't my intention to offend you. God bless you Shana.
Nero, if you believe in eternal torment then tell me how it is that the sinners in eternal torment are no longer sinning?

Paul
 
Old 08-13-2009, 09:25 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,133,922 times
Reputation: 626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
but He can't allow those who have rejected His Son and the Holy Spirit to live in His presence either, as part of His justice they must be seperated because God won't destroy them.


Everyone has rejected at one point or another, so the whole human race is damned, this includes you.

Ja 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
 
Old 08-13-2009, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Detroit/South Korea
465 posts, read 249,476 times
Reputation: 124
Methinks exclusivists worship free will.

"Man's free will"..."Man's free will".

To think that God actually saving someone against their will from destruction is seen as heresy.

I can picture me or someone else as a parent now with a 6 year old.

"Ok son, here are the rules when you play outside, no running into the street and no talking to strangers. If you do these things, you could be in serious danger and could lose your life. Now I am telling you the rules, and I don't want you to do them, but because I love you and respect your free will, I'm going to let you go outside and play by yourself while I just sit in the house and watch and not interfere."

Then the son goes out to play, runs into the street, and gets hit by a car on the parents watch.

"Oh how I am so sad for you my son!! But I told you what would happen if you did that and you decided to disobey and this is what happens when you disobey. I love you, but you made that decision. I could've stopped you many times, but your free will was so important to me."

Point blank, humans are too ignorant to realize the destruction they're headed to to "make a decision for Christ"...just like little immature kids who have no idea what they're doing. So what does a parent do? They enforce rules against their children's will. They do everything in their power to stop them from getting hurt or killed because the little child is to ignorant to know any better.

And it's offensive to people that God would actually save somebody against their will from eternal damnation...yeah God would leave the biggest decision of someones life up to them, an ignorant human being...what a crock
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