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Old 08-13-2009, 03:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
It's up to us to accept it through faith.

We accept it "because" he first loved us and gave us faith.
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Old 08-13-2009, 03:58 PM
 
Location: nc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mb64282 View Post
Corinthians 13:1-13, Love is manifested through works, not just our own gagas
through acceptance, works come, it is just like any other gift you have to take care of it to keep it in good condition
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:21 PM
 
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Talk to June about: "GRACE"

I used to know a Grace. She was a nice person.
I used to have an aunt Grace. She was nice too.
I say grace before meals, sometimes. I also sing amazing grace occassionally. I`m glad we have grace.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Talk to June about: "GRACE"

I used to know a Grace. She was a nice person.
I used to have an aunt Grace. She was nice too.
I say grace before meals, sometimes. I also sing amazing grace occassionally. I`m glad we have grace.
Good gracious!


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Old 08-13-2009, 04:40 PM
 
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Well, again I was going to stay out of this thread, as doctrines, including Grace can be so touchy. June, I understand I think what you are asking, but I cannot put it into words. I can, however, use the words of another, which conveys my thoughts as well.

" In the covenant of redemption, man is merely the subject of the covenant. The parties are God the Father and God the Son. In this covenant, the Son is made the head, or representitive, of His people. Adam is the natural head of the human family, and Christ is the covenant head of His Church.
The covenant of Grace was founded on this covenant of redemption. Made with men and revealed to Adam AFTER the fall, it was more fully revealed to Abraham. With Jesus Christ as Mediator of this covenant of Grace (in opposition to the original covenant of works 'by Law'), salvation was now made by Faith. The obedience and death of Jesus Christ was regarded as the reason ANY individual could be saved, notan individual's personal obedience.
But Christ's obedience was NOT performed FOR us. As a man, He had to obey for Himself. If He did not obey, He became PERSONALLY a transgressor. Yet, there is a sense in which it may be said the His obedience is reckoned to our account. His obedience has highly honored the Law, and His death has fully satisfied the demands for Justice. GRACE, (not justice) has reckoned His Righteousness to us. If He had obeyed the LAW strictly for us, justice would have accounted His obedience TO us. WE WOULD HAVE OBTAINED SALVATION BY RIGHT, INSTEAD OF ASKING FOR IT THROUGH GRACE.
Only in this sense is salvation accounted to ours: that He, being God and man, voluntarily assumed our nature and laid down His life to make atonement. This casts SUCH A GLORY on God's LAW, that GRACE considers His Obedience ours, AS IF WE WERE RIGHTEOUS.
Christ is also the covenant head of those who believe. He is NOT the "natural" head, as Adam was, but our covenant relationship to Him is such that whatever is given to Him, is ALSO given to us. Whatever He is and whatever He has done, either as God or man, is given to us by covenant. All there is in Christ is ours in the covenant of Grace.
We receive this Grace BY Faith. Nothing we can do makes us deserving of this righteousness. But as soon as we exercise FAITH, all that is contained in the covenant of Grace becomes ours. This is WHY the inspired writers made SO MUCH of Faith. Faith is our part of the covenant. It is the eye that discerns, the hand that takes hold, and the medium by which we come to posess the blessings of the covenant. By Faith, the soul actually comes to posess ALL that is embraced in that act of Faith. If there is not enough faith received to break the BONDS of sin and set the soul at liberty, it is because the act has NOT embraced enough of what Christ is and what He has done. "- Charles Finney.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:58 PM
 
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I'll give it a go and try to define it in terms June hopefully possibly maybe will appreciate. Grace is the mirror opposite of the existentialist capture by The Other's gaze, where you can't be defined and are free to self-define. God, OTOH, being God, can see the wholeness of a person, and coming to understand that you are the object of His gaze means defining yourself in terms of what He loves about you. God's love just exists. God's grace is to actively partake in it and change. The wretch can change and know grace through this understanding. How he changes himself, what he has to do to define himself (to others (Others?), actually), is what's causing the disagreements on this thread. Hopefully possibly maybe clear? I'm not sure if I've conveyed it correctly.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
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I believe grace would be considered the tool by which God shows His love to mankind.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjee View Post

Grace is the mirror opposite of the existentialist capture by The Other's gaze, where you can't be defined and are free to self-define. God, OTOH, being God, can see the wholeness of a person, and coming to understand that you are the object of His gaze means defining yourself in terms of what He loves about you. God's love just exists. God's grace is to actively partake in it and change. The wretch can change and know grace through this understanding. How he changes himself, what he has to do to define himself (to others (Others?), actually), is what's causing the disagreements on this thread. Hopefully possibly maybe clear? I'm not sure if I've conveyed it correctly.
Ah ha!

--So it is somehow the opposite of the existentialist ....what? (See bolded part ^ ) as that was the one part June kinda got hung up on. Otherwise, she hopefully, possibly, maybe got that much closer to understanding it!

-Thanks!
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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Oh, by "gaze" I mean the idea that in existentialism no one can capture truth. The whole "Hell is The Other" phrase, refusing to be trapped by absolutes including any ultimate understanding one human being has about another. The "other's" "gaze".

Last edited by Bunjee; 08-13-2009 at 06:14 PM.. Reason: Clarification.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjee View Post
Oh, by "gaze" I mean the idea that in existentialism no one can capture truth. The whole "Hell is The Other" phrase, refusing to be trapped by absolutes including any ultimate understanding one human being has about another. The "other's" "gaze".
Hmmm...

So would "grace" be the Other's 'gaze' in a sense?

('Other' meaning God.)
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