The rapture theory (Epistles, gnostic, beliefs, exodus)

[sciotamicks]

Zechariah 14 starts with a reference to the day of the Lord. Some other references are in Isaiah 13:6-9.

The “Day of the Lord” is the term God used to speak of nations being destroyed as divine visitations upon the people for their sins. This is the manner in which it is used in Zechariah 14. See especially Zech 14:3, of the Lord going forth and fighting against those nations in the day of battle.

The prophecy refers to Jerusalem’s fall by the Romans in 70 A.D.(Luke 21:20-22).

The language is highly figurative in speaking of the Lord’s feet standing on the Mount of Olives. Christ comes in connection with Jerusalem’s fall.
(Matthew 24:30-34).

The language of “not day and night” corresponds with the usual apocalyptic language of the darkening of the sun, moon and stars
(Matt 24: 6-7). Compare the day not known with Matthew 24:36.

However, in connection with the event, salvation arrives from “living waters” that flow from Jerusalem. The living waters are also figurative.

Jesus said that rivers of living waters would flow from the heart of those who believe in him, (John 7:38).
Yet, I’ve neither seen nor heard of anyone who claims they have literal rivers of water in their hearts.

This however is a great clue to the understanding of the text and the time of the event.
Jesus spoke of living water in connection with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

The spirit was poured out on Pentecost (Acts 2) and would continue until the great and terrible day of the Lord as spoken by Joel (2:28-32).

Therefore, the day of the Lord, finds its culmination in the consummation of the miraculous ministry of the Holy Spirit, which takes one right back to Jesus’ Parousia/Presence in A.D. 70, (1 Corinthians 1:7, 8).

According to Zechariah 14:9, it is then that the Lord would be King over all the earth. Ezekiel’s prophecy identifies this as the time of the New Covenant when God has called the Gentiles, and through them Israel of the dispersion back to him through the gospel. (Ezekiel 37:14)

You may note, that text likewise in the passage cited, begins with the work of the Holy Spirit. Unless God pours out the Holy Spirit in more than one end of the age/aeon or last days period, it is the same time of the exact same theme.

The safety and peace of Jerusalem is the New Jerusalem also called the church in Hebrews 12:22-23.

To summarize the latter parts of the text, the “Feast of Tabernacles” demonstrates that the “Harvest of Souls” reaped in the end of the age (Matthew 13:39-43), has occurred and the celebration of eternal life has begun.

The imagery is Jewish, for salvation is of the Jews, but it is not literal. Notice that unless everyone goes to this Jerusalem, upon them there shall be no rain. This is the message of the redeemed and the purified tabernacle through Christ’s blood from which the wicked, expressed in the term “Canaanite” cannot enter. Compare with the picture of the Holy City in Revelation 21:27 and 22:15.

[jimmiej]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Reader's digest? I am trying to have a respectable debate with you, and you have followed the same path that most futurists do, is attack the person rather than the view when your ammo is dried up.

How un-Christian of you, but you are forgiven.

It wasn't meant as an attack. I'm sorry I offended you. Your posts tend to be lengthy, so I was hoping for something quick & easy to understand what you believe with regards to our future.

For instance, do you believe Christ's second coming will be for everyone, believers and non? Do you believe the Judgment seat of Christ is the same as The Great White Throne Judgment? Will they both occur at the second coming? Will living believers (not Tribulation believers) endure the Tribulation, or will we be gone?

Where does your version of the end times come from? I know you're not the first or only one to believe this way. Obviously, it makes sense to you, as does my view to me of the end times. BTW, I have studied other views.

[sciotamicks]

Jimmie,

All good my brother. I am a Full Preterist, as if you haven't noticed. That should explain and answer the questions you have asked me. Preterism, or Partial Preterism has been in effect since the first century, and continues on today, however Full Preterism, is the product of Partial, or the realization of it. No hard feelings.

[sciotamicks]

Jimmie,

I believe our future is up to us as Christians to shine the light so that "the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." Rev 21:24

That's it. No end. No Great Tribulation, No Antichrist. The battle we have with Satan is between the flesh and the spirit, which that in Christ, our spirit will prevail, for once we die we obtain our glorified bodies. The kingdom of Christ is within us, not by the naked eye, and only can be seen in us, the church, the New Jerusalem.

[jimmiej]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Jimmie,

All good my brother. I am a Full Preterist, as if you haven't noticed. That should explain and answer the questions you have asked me. Preterism, or Partial Preterism has been in effect since the first century, and continues on today, however Full Preterism, is the product of Partial, or the realization of it. No hard feelings.

Interesting... I'm curious, do Full Preterists have any problems with the Apostle Paul?

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Mike,

You are wrong again.

You are a part of the new Jerusalem and of Israel. The nation, their light, the redemption, has already been sealed with Christ. Now it is up to you to witness to them.

The New Jerusalem refers to the Heavenly city which will come down from Heaven and be suspended above the earth. It will be the eternal home of the Church. But, the New Jerusalem doesn't descend until after the Millennium. Israel will dwell in the land that God promised to Abraham. The land will extend from the Euphrates to the Jordan, from the Mediterranean to the end of the Negev. This land will belong to him and to his descendants forever. Gen 13:15. The Jews will inhabit all of this land during the Millennium.

You are right that we should witness to the Jews. And to anyone who will listen.

"Intercalation"...where is this in scripture?

Intercalation is just a technical theological term as is the word 'Trinity' and 'rapture'. The words themselves are not found in the Bible. But what they describe is.

Are you Catholic?

No.

Who is responsible for the blood of the prophets? Think OT and you will find the answer. Jesus also gave you that very answer, and so does John in Rev 18:24

Israel as a nation, has not been abandoned, but intergrated into the New Jerusalem, if they accept Christ. How hard is this to figure out? The scripture is not confusing.

Israel is not a part of the New Jersalem. The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church. Israel's future is on the earth in the land that was promised them. The Church is God's Heavenly people and Israel is God's earthly people. (Yeah, I do repeat myself a lot) The rest of the earth will be inhabited by the Gentile nations.

Now, during this Church Age, when a Jew accepts Christ as Savior he then is a part of the Church and will indeed inhabit the New Jersalem. But as far as the Jews who lived during the Age of Israel, these are the Jews who will live in the land promised to Abraham

John did not write Revelation in 96 AD, and if you carefully examine the early church fathers you will come to that conclusion as well, as I have done. John would have been a very old man, doing hard labor on Patmos' mines, and further to add, after his exile there, he continued to evangelize and start a fair amount of churches afterwardsm, but yet he died at the end of the century? This premise is being refuted, and has been refuted ever since the turn of the 1st century to the 2nd, and will rightfully be silenced in due time. The evidence IMO speaks much louded than the arbitrary, elusive documents in which the futurists hold their weight to, and forget that scripture overrides all the creeds, something that Calvin fought very hard for. I feel most of the church is wrong and have been misled, not by the Holy Spirit, but by man's error in doing, such reasons why the evidence supporting the early date still coninue and has gathered more momentum and will eventually fade the late date into nothing. Be prepared.

There is debate as to when John wrote Revelation. Preterists will of course opt for an early date as it fits into their view.

The Holy Spirit certainly does not mislead, but rather, Satan does everything in his power to confuse the facts and discredit the Bible. That's why there are so many denominations and heretical groups. And that's why the false Church, Roman Catholism, exists. That is why the preterists believe as they do, and the seventh day adventists and on and on...

The Bible is to be taken literally unless the context clearly indicates that something that is being written about is not literal. Preterism misinterprets the Bible so badly because it won't take the Bible for what it says, but insists on saying that something which is clearly literal is figurative. For instance, saying that the visible, physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth and that his feet touch down on the Mount of Olives which results in an earthquake is figurative when it is clearly literal. The fissure that results allows a means of escape from Jerusalem for the Jews while Jesus Christ is destroying the nations that have attacked it.


When Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, they were destroyed by one nation. By Rome. In the tribulation there are multiple nations that will come against Israel. Russia and China seem to be two such nations that will attack Israel. Actually there are a lot of nations that will be involved, but I can't remember right now who all is involved.

You are going to be waiting a very long time, and so are your children's children

Only God knows when He will resurrect the Church.

I'm getting tired now and can't concentrate, so I'm going to leave it here.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by jimmiej

Interesting... I'm curious, do Full Preterists have any problems with the Apostle Paul?

Not at all. As a mater of fact, we appear to unerstand him far better than futurists, IMO of course

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The New Jerusalem refers to the Heavenly city

Yes indeed it does, and you, your saved soul, is a part of that city.

....which will come down from Heaven and be suspended above the earth.

Science fiction theater? Really? This is a definite stretch of imagination.

It will be the eternal home of the Church. But, the New Jerusalem doesn't descend until after the Millennium

This is a symobic number..just like the 144k....Not a literal thousand years....take a look at your concordance, and read up on the meaning thereof.

Intercalation is just a technical theological term as is the word 'Trinity' and 'rapture'. The words themselves are not found in the Bible. But what they describe is.

Then we better stick to describing them as they are said.

Israel is not a part of the New Jersalem. The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church.

You are a part of Israel now Mike. Israel is not a nation, but the church. The Jews called it their nation, but that has been taken away now, divinely. It doesn't matter what they call themselves now, it is irrelevant.

There is debate as to when John wrote Revelation. Preterists will of course opt for an early date as it fits into their view.

Unfortunately, for the futurists sake, they are losing this battle, as their very own foundation from where they derive at this premise, is being usurped by those opting for the late date, based on the evidence that the futurists are using themselves. Just wait and see.

The Bible is to be taken literally unless the context clearly indicates that something that is being written about is not literal.

This is true.

Preterism misinterprets the Bible so badly because it won't take the Bible for what it says, but insists on saying that something which is clearly literal is figurative.

This is where all futurists err. Futurists take the scripture literally when it is plainly obvious that the scripture states the interpretation elsewhere. For instance, your statement regardiong the Mother of Harlot, who is responsible for the blood of the prophets, in which you, as most futuriosts claim to be Babylon, or some world empire in the 21st century, when Jesus, and many prophets in past, have explicitly indentified this to be Jerusalem. Context, context context.

For instance, saying that the visible, physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth and that his feet touch down on the Mount of Olives which results in an earthquake is figurative when it is clearly literal.

Ahhh but it is figurative, as I explained in the above post concerning Zech 14...did you even read it?

Russia and China seem to be two such nations that will attack Israel.

Russia and China? Gog and the armies of the east..you mean?
You have much work to do.

[jimmiej]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Not at all. As a mater of fact, we appear to unerstand him far better than futurists, IMO of course

Paul told Timothy:

2Ti 2:16-18 Avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, (17) and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, (18) who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some.

Isn't that verse at odds with Full Preterism?

[jimmiej]

Ahhh but it is figurative, as I explained in the above post concerning Zech 14...did you even read it?

(Acts 1:11 NIV) "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."