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Old 08-19-2009, 06:08 PM
 
78 posts, read 58,809 times
Reputation: 39

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i first want to state that i just want to share why i believe the rapture to be wrong, i hold no ill thoughts toward anyone who holds to the theory, as we all see through the dark glass differently.

i once also believed the theory but once i saw in the words that it could not be (to me) i no longer did and here is the main reason why.

We have words of our Lord Jesus as recorded by Matthew (and Luke varys a little):

5-For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6-And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7-For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8-All these are the beginning of sorrows.9-Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10- And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11-And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12-And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13- But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14- And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.15-When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand,) 16-then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: 17-let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18- neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.19- And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!20- But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21-for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




In another thread ILNC said:
Quote from ILNC
I also believe in the Rapture of the Church (I'm not Catholic though).and

also said:
Quote ILNC
I believe because of God's grace we will be raptured before the tribulation


Notice when our Lord returns in verse 29 is AFTER Tribulation

notice also vs 9- they are gonna hate and persecute you
(according to the rapture, you are not going to be here)

Notice also vs 24:For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect
How could the possibilty of the elect being decieved if they are not here?The bottom line is that Jesus said He is coming back AFTER all this

My favorite vs is the ending of vs 30:
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. There is going to be NO doubt it's happening

Gods' blessings to ya
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 565,706 times
Reputation: 134
Default Little more info on the rapture deception!!!

[LEFT]Will there be rapture?Yes. Rapture means "to be carried away with power."

"Then we, which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1Thessalonians 4:17.
Will it be a secret rapture?

"No! The Bible tells us that Christ's return will be:

Literal
"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts 1:9-11.

Heaven-sent messengers told the disciples that Jesus would return to this earth in the same manner as He left. Christ left in the clouds and He will come back in the clouds.

Spectacular
"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." Luke 21:26, 27.

"And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." Isaiah 25:9.

Visible
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." Revelation 1:7.

Christ was visible when He left and He will be visible when He comes again.

"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Matthew 24:27

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30.

The Bible is very clear that when Jesus comes back, His feet will not touch the ground. The righteous will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1Thessalonians 4:17). This is why Jesus warns us:
: "Therefore if they say to you, "Look, He is in the desert! do not go out; or "Look, He is in the inner rooms! do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Matthew 24:26, 27.

Audible
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

"The Lord shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout." Jeremiah 25:30.

"Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him." Psalms 50:3.


Why is Christ coming? To resurrect His dedicated people who are dead: "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:40.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." 1Corinthians 15:22, 23.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1Thessalonians 4:16, 17.

This is the Bible's description of the rapture. The dead in Christ will rise by His power and will meet Him in the air. Afterward the faithful who are still alive will also be caught up. It will not be a secret!

To reward His dedicated people: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.

It is at Christ's return that we will receive our final reward. Each person's destiny will have already been decided.
What will happen to the earth?

"The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again."Isaiah 24:19, 20.

"And the heaven [sky] departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places." Revelation 6:14.

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." Revelation 16:18-20.
If that is what the Bible teaches, how then did the idea of a secret rapture arise?

Here are a few verses used to support the Secret Rapture theory:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" 2Peter 3:10.

Many conclude that this means that there will be a secret rapture. But if we continue the passage:
"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat; the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2Peter 3:10.

"If the good man of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:39, 40

Here Christ is using a parable to point out the unexpectedness of His return, and admonishes us to therefore watch and pray.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Luke 17:34-36.

This verse simply implies that at the end, there will be just two groups of people living upon the earth the lost and the saved.
Why is the Secret Rapture belief popular?

Many have come to believe that the Secret Rapture will take place quietly and faithful Christians around the world will suddenly disappear while life here on earth will continue for a seven-year period of tribulation. During this time, they say, many will be converted and have a "second chance" at salvation before Christ's final coming, but we know that Satan would have us believe that so that we can delay our conversion to Christ.

This belief is popular because it teaches that the dedicated people of God will not have to go 'through tribulation' and the wicked will have a second chance; but the Bible does not teach that:

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Revelation 7:14.

But the Lord will be with His children during tribulation Praise His Name.

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
John 16:33.[/LEFT]
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:32 PM
 
78 posts, read 58,809 times
Reputation: 39
My apologies i should have specified the "secret" rapture theory
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:43 AM
 
Location: nc
1,244 posts, read 1,278,085 times
Reputation: 290
ROFL people secretly disappearing? How are you going to keep it a secret if somebody is just flown off to heaven? Wouldn't we notice? Or would God just lead us to believe they had been kidnapped and remove resources from people who really have been kidnapped to go look for these people? I also find it interesting that this whole Rapture idea is so popular among people with the, 'no book but the Bible,' this didn't come out of the Bible, how is this ok? I can't say I am against the theory though, I don't really care or mind however you imagine such things, not really my business, 'causing no harm, your good' and I enjoy Rapture jokes from people that support the theory so, hey w/e.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:43 AM
 
6,559 posts, read 5,145,828 times
Reputation: 1786
Quote:
Why is the Secret Rapture belief popular?
The real question is why is it popular at all! Whether the rapture is real or not I do not know. I don't believe it to be real, just a man-made doctrine made up from disjointed scriptures taken out of context.

BUT!

Believing in it helps Christians suffering from horrible maladies---from physical suffering they must endure daily (arthritis, disease, back pain, sciatica, etc. through abusive relationships, (physical, mental, emotional) through poverty (bills piled a mile high, foreclosure, unemployment, etc.) through mental disorders (depression, OCD, compulsive behaviors, chronic sinful lifestyles, addictions, etc) to those just poor in spirit---belief in the rapture helps them get through all this from one day to the next. "If not today, Lord, then perhaps tomorrow," is the most powerful tranquilizer I know of. No prescription needed; no expensive Dr's appointment and followups. So what if a rapture, secret or otherwise, never comes? If it got someone through a rough life without pills or psychiatrists, then it did its job. They die, go to be with the Lord, and their suffering is over. The rapture is the greatest salve for sadness there is for Christians. More power to it--and belief in it, too if it helps you deal with your ills.
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Old 08-20-2009, 02:31 PM
 
Location: The Magic Kingdom
7,067 posts, read 2,883,803 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa View Post
i first want to state that i just want to share why i believe the rapture to be wrong, i hold no ill thoughts toward anyone who holds to the theory, as we all see through the dark glass differently.

i once also believed the theory but once i saw in the words that it could not be (to me) i no longer did and here is the main reason why.

We have words of our Lord Jesus as recorded by Matthew (and Luke varys a little):

5-For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6-And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7-For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8-All these are the beginning of sorrows.9-Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.10- And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11-And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12-And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.13- But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14- And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.15-When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand,) 16-then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: 17-let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18- neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.19- And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!20- But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21-for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




In another thread ILNC said:
Quote from ILNC
I also believe in the Rapture of the Church (I'm not Catholic though).and

also said:
Quote ILNC
I believe because of God's grace we will be raptured before the tribulation


Notice when our Lord returns in verse 29 is AFTER Tribulation

notice also vs 9- they are gonna hate and persecute you
(according to the rapture, you are not going to be here)

Notice also vs 24:For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect
How could the possibilty of the elect being decieved if they are not here?The bottom line is that Jesus said He is coming back AFTER all this

My favorite vs is the ending of vs 30:
they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. There is going to be NO doubt it's happening

Gods' blessings to ya
Don't you think the above passage is mostly referring to the time before both the rapture or Christ's Second Coming? It seems we're seeing a lot of those things nowadays.

What do you do with I Thessalonians 4?

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 565,706 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Don't you think the above passage is mostly referring to the time before both the rapture or Christ's Second Coming? It seems we're seeing a lot of those things nowadays.

What do you do with I Thessalonians 4?

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
When Jesus comes, it will be loud like a trumpet. With the voice of the archangel he shall call the dead to come to him first, and after that the living who have been saved will meet him in the air. If you continue to read to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 it says:

"1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This means it is to happen very much out of nowhere (thief) and when it does it will be destruction for the wicked, yet not destruction for the saved they are to be caught up with him. Then if you proceed to read 2 Peter 3:10 it says:

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up".

It will be loud (not secret) with heavens passing away!! The earth and all the wicked (works therein) shall be burnt up. Both books Thessalonians, 2 Peter, and Matthew, Mark, & Luke(as listed by dipidydoodaa) are referring the same day. THE DAY OF THE LORD!!!

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

GOD BLESS!!!!
ALMOST2L8
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:27 PM
 
Location: The Magic Kingdom
7,067 posts, read 2,883,803 times
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In order for Christ's 2nd coming to be a surprise (rapture), it must take place before the tribulation starts. It would absolutely silly to apply this to any other view. During the final hour of the tribulation, 2/3 of mankind will be dead from the various judgments and the Church will be under constant threat from the Antichrist. In all this carnage, I cannot imagine believers being oblivious to the nearness of the Lord's return. This is why a pre-trib rapture is the only position that makes sense.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,330,103 times
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The "coming in the clouds" used in every instance of Christ's coming is solely used in Old Testament imagery/symbolism as apocalyptic and judgemental literature that the Hebrew culture, prophets and laymen alike understood it to be as such wherein God judges His people, the Jews, or a pagan nation such as Assyria and Egypt.

Don't look outside of the book, look within it to understand what John is referring to.
This event of Christ is Him coming in judgement, and not a literal, visual appearance of Him in a heavely bodily form.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:34 PM
 
Location: The Magic Kingdom
7,067 posts, read 2,883,803 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The "coming in the clouds" used in every instance of Christ's coming is solely used in Old Testament imagery/symbolism as apocalyptic and judgemental literature that the Hebrew culture, prophets and laymen alike understood it to be as such wherein God judges His people, the Jews, or a pagan nation such as Assyria and Egypt.

Don't look outside of the book, look within it to understand what John is referring to.
This event of Christ is Him coming in judgement, and not a literal, visual appearance of Him in a heavely bodily form.
Wouldn't a pre-Trib rapture fit well in that scenario?
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