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Old 08-23-2009, 10:48 PM
 
7,462 posts, read 7,069,987 times
Reputation: 2834

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Hello June,
Hello, Verna.

June's been waiting for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Having a lustful thought is not "committing" an act of sin.
"phew!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Indulging in it, however, makes it a sin. Not knowing that indulging in the thought was a sin would be considered a sin done in ignorance of God's law.
June's doomed right out of the gate, before she even starts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
The atoning sacrifice of Jesus (The Blood of Christ) covers any sin done in ignorance until such time as the Holy Spirit makes the believer aware of his wrongdoing.
Okay, so until such time as June 'knows better' she's covered? She's okay? Can't be held "sinfully accountable" if she just (June, being "just June") honestly doesn't know better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Yes, now you have "committed" the act of sin in your heart...which is rebellion against God...no different than physically doing whatever it is you're thinking about doing.
Now THIS ^ definately caught June's attention!

WHAT!?

Verna, dear: Do you actually mean to tell me that if you, I, or anyone else (June's thinkin' males, here, for the moment due to gender biased simplicity sake....) give into a lustful thought as some 'sweet little nothing' walks past them in the mall, with luscious long legs, a modestly short skirt, a (tastefully cut) shirt that just so happens to capitalize on what God's good grace happened to bestow upon them, (oh, and let's not omit the fact that she's tan!) and some poor guy who is window shopping just so happens to catch a glimpse of her out of the corner of his eye, and mentally goes "Mmmmmm...." that in his mind's naturally 'going there' (and naturally enjoying his few moments of self indulgence) that it's no different than if he actually had sex with her!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Yes...again, that is "committing" an act of sin in your heart...rebellion against God.


With all due respect, June's just not buying it.

She means no disrespect what so ever as regards any male Christian's belief, devotion, dedication, etc., so forth and so on, BUT!

--If nothing else, if this "doctrine" or line of reasoning was truth/reality, then there is little question (based on the current demographics in the U.S.) that the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be able to pump out Depo Provera fast enough!!!! (A drug that inhibits the male sex drive.) Instead, they are making money hand over fist marketing Viagra! --Think about it!

Given the overwhelming number of Christians in our country, (think: demographics) then something's telling June that if what you are advocating is acceptably true, then men across America would be popping a little pink pill every morning in order to adhere to not sinning.

-And why?

BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN!

FWIW: Having sex in your head is not the equivalent of having actually gone out and committed the act. --And if it is, then let every Christian male go and wake up his sleeping wife right now, tonight, and tell her: "Baby, I"ve committed adultery." -June doesn't even wanna fathom the outcome of that one...Because chances are, your wife is gunna turn around and say "Yeah, well I've done the same to you!"

We're sexual beings.

Sex isn't the enemy. It's not a "bad thing!" "Lust" is not a "bad thing." June would think that it would be regarded as a gift from God. It's what allows you to enjoy making love to your wife/husband/partner...

"Fantasy" is not evil. It actually serves a purpose.

Why not address those aspects that inhibit/prohibit intimacy within a marriage/relationship as regards one's sex life? --That lead people to act on their thoughts and commit either physical or emotional "sins" of adultery? life?

(Because that is the real issue here...Not "sin.")


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Those who do not believe in, or who do not have knowledge of the Word of God consider this impractical and unrealistic.
Now this June would believe. However, she would also believe that there are even some Christians out there who might tend to find it a tad "impractical and unrealistic" if they are being honest with themselves. -Or aren't in denial as regards the fundamental reality as it pertains to their sexuality.

June met a friend this morning. He was helping June. Doing her a favor. By your definition of "sin" June had already committed at least a dozen sins before noon. --With the same man! And something tells June that it more than likely was a mutual state of affairs.

-But hey, June's okay/accepting of that. We're human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
The only thing that man does have the ability to control is his thoughts.

It comes from the love of God.
Yes, June absolutely agrees that we as human beings do possess the capacity to "control our thoughts." --But June's also here to tell you that it's not as simple as you put forth. The human sex drive, and intimacy cannot be reduced to a purely cognitive behavioral entity. Neither, therefore, can "sin." "Automatic thoughts" that lead to a follow through of 'fantasy' in one's mind is NOT the enemy.

The denial of it is. June knows her lover can see "twenty-something" females with far better bodies than Junes at the mall...

--But it's June's heart, mind, and soul that he loves, and thereby does.

June can accept that, along with his "sin."

And her own.

"Intimacy" and "love" cannot be reduced to a logical equation.

Thank God for that.


Take gentle care.
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 3,949,135 times
Reputation: 811
Quote:
Originally Posted by June 7th
......Take gentle care.
...and you as well.
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Old 08-23-2009, 11:45 PM
 
23,035 posts, read 11,123,681 times
Reputation: 3900
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Hello, Verna.
June's been waiting for you.
"phew!"
June's doomed right out of the gate, before she even starts.
Okay, so until such time as June 'knows better' she's covered? She's okay? Can't be held "sinfully accountable" if she just (June, being "just June") honestly doesn't know better?
Now THIS ^ definately caught June's attention!
WHAT!?
Verna, dear: Do you actually mean to tell me that if you, I, or anyone else (June's thinkin' males, here, for the moment due to gender biased simplicity sake....) give into a lustful thought as some 'sweet little nothing' walks past them in the mall, with luscious long legs, a modestly short skirt, a (tastefully cut) shirt that just so happens to capitalize on what God's good grace happened to bestow upon them, (oh, and let's not omit the fact that she's tan!) and some poor guy who is window shopping just so happens to catch a glimpse of her out of the corner of his eye, and mentally goes "Mmmmmm...." that in his mind's naturally 'going there' (and naturally enjoying his few moments of self indulgence) that it's no different than if he actually had sex with her!?

With all due respect, June's just not buying it.

She means no disrespect what so ever as regards any male Christian's belief, devotion, dedication, etc., so forth and so on, BUT!

--If nothing else, if this "doctrine" or line of reasoning was truth/reality, then there is little question (based on the current demographics in the U.S.) that the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be able to pump out Depo Provera fast enough!!!! (A drug that inhibits the male sex drive.) Instead, they are making money hand over fist marketing Viagra! --Think about it!

Given the overwhelming number of Christians in our country, (think: demographics) then something's telling June that if what you are advocating is acceptably true, then men across America would be popping a little pink pill every morning in order to adhere to not sinning.

-And why?

BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN!

FWIW: Having sex in your head is not the equivalent of having actually gone out and committed the act. --And if it is, then let every Christian male go and wake up his sleeping wife right now, tonight, and tell her: "Baby, I"ve committed adultery." -June doesn't even wanna fathom the outcome of that one...Because chances are, your wife is gunna turn around and say "Yeah, well I've done the same to you!"

We're sexual beings.

Sex isn't the enemy. It's not a "bad thing!" "Lust" is not a "bad thing." June would think that it would be regarded as a gift from God. It's what allows you to enjoy making love to your wife/husband/partner...

"Fantasy" is not evil. It actually serves a purpose.

Why not address those aspects that inhibit/prohibit intimacy within a marriage/relationship as regards one's sex life? --That lead people to act on their thoughts and commit either physical or emotional "sins" of adultery? life?

(Because that is the real issue here...Not "sin.")

Now this June would believe. However, she would also believe that there are even some Christians out there who might tend to find it a tad "impractical and unrealistic" if they are being honest with themselves. -Or aren't in denial as regards the fundamental reality as it pertains to their sexuality.

June met a friend this morning. He was helping June. Doing her a favor. By your definition of "sin" June had already committed at least a dozen sins before noon. --With the same man! And something tells June that it more than likely was a mutual state of affairs.

-But hey, June's okay/accepting of that. We're human.

Yes, June absolutely agrees that we as human beings do possess the capacity to "control our thoughts." --But June's also here to tell you that it's not as simple as you put forth. The human sex drive, and intimacy cannot be reduced to a purely cognitive behavioral entity. Neither, therefore, can "sin." "Automatic thoughts" that lead to a follow through of 'fantasy' in one's mind is NOT the enemy.

The denial of it is. June knows her lover can see "twenty-something" females with far better bodies than Junes at the mall...

--But it's June's heart, mind, and soul that he loves, and thereby does.

June can accept that, along with his "sin."

And her own.

"Intimacy" and "love" cannot be reduced to a logical equation.

Thank God for that.
Take gentle care.
Well said, June. It is the assumption that there is no real purpose and nothing but a prohibition from God behind "sins" that causes such confusion. Our thoughts are only partially under our conscious control . . . and they do have consequences. They can generate drive states within the body that result in an imbalance (lack of homeostasis) that usually requires some resolution. We generate many drive states that our life and circumstances , etc. prevent us from ACTING on during every day . . . it is a common and frequent occurrence. Thus it is suggested that we not indulge our "sinful" thoughts and raise their potency . . . instead generate counter thoughts to neutralize them. It is the ACTING on them that must be avoided and when they reach the degree of drive activation where that is likely . . . it requires a similar level of motivation and counter drive generation to neutralize them. The vast majority of the unsatisfied drives we generate during our waking hours (and do not ACT upon them) are resolved during the dream state (which is why REM is so essential to mental health). This is where the idea comes from that God gives to His children in their sleep. Thoughts that are countered or not acted upon are not any form of error or "sin" . . . even if you enjoyed them as they occurred.
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:20 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 2,944,270 times
Reputation: 571
Since we are talking about sexual thoughts, or other thoughts which a person may entertain here and there, being the natural humans we are, let us discuss this even further. In 1st John 2:16 we read:

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

We read from this profoundly simple verse that, the lusts of the flesh and eyes, and the pride of life, are not of the Father. Why would it say this? Did He not create us this way? Is it not natural for humans to lust? I mean, deep down, where the natural man sits in his natural state. Are we not but beasts with souls? Does not a baby lust? Does not a baby exibit pride?

You see, this sin was there from the beginning. Read about Eve. She saw that the tree of knowledge was good for food(lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasing to the eyes(lust of the eyes), but also that is had the possibility to make a person "wise"(the pride of life). Knowing good and evil, thus becoming "like" God. There were plenty of other trees there to satisfy the qualifications for food. There were perhaps multitudes of beautiful fruits there that were pleasing to the eyes. But that was not enough, for this tree had another forbidden aspect to it. It was the forbidden that caused mankind to fall.

It is this way with opposite genders. Some would say this is natural, to seek out the opposite sex, and mate. Not just mate, but sample. Not just sample, but indulge in thoughts about the sampling. Not just indulge the thoughts about sampling, but perhaps acting out the thoughts upon one's own self, or even a "lesser" person by fantisizing about another, while sampling, or mating. See how this ends up being something not natural?

God made a man and a woman to be in a deep covenant relationship surrounded in unconditional love. The kind that binds the flesh until the death of the body but lasts for eternity. All the sexual emotions that come from being a male, or female, should befall upon the other's spouse. It should be this way. It is supposed to be this way. Before they even consumate the marriage, the elders in both person's lives should explain all the functions of the bodies to the kids tying the knot. But, even the fantisies of their partner even should be discouraged. Why would I say this? Idol worship, plainly put. Anticipation, yes, but not lustful obsession.

How many people, upon thinking about something for so long, indulge in that which was in their hearts, burning with a once controlled desire, so that it becomes uncontrolled? This is why, Jesus said he who looks upon a woman with lust "in his heart", has committed the act already. But it actually goes a bit deeper than that. If a person is consumed by lust, then God is not there, because God and sin don't mix. If the thoughts are not pure, and we give them to God to help us deal with them, and He will, unless you need further "testing", then at which time, you are handed to the "tester". It may be this fine looking woman, or man, and opportunites may arise as part of the test. Happens every day. Sadly, many fail the test. Even the people we thught were above this, like leaders in the churches.

The lust and prideful inclinations that are rooted so deeply in the human heart, may actually manifest itself out, and the person then commits the act. But see, here it goes from bad to worse. The thoughts that were rooted so deeply in their hearts, which have now played themselves out to commit the acts, now involve other people. Now by thier actions, another has fallen. Woe to that person who places stumbling blocks. Want to hear something even more strange, still? You may be the "satan" used for the "testing" of another person. Remember Pharaoh's heart and how it was hardened to test the resolve of the Israelites?

So, yes. We are human beings. We were not always in this state of carnality, but society has brought us here. Moralities have gone down, and with this, the desires(lusts) and pride of this life have gone up. What was once considered "taboo", is now looked at as the norm. Women walk around leaving nothing to the imaginiations, displaying all of their natural beauty, and men also do the same. The act of sex, is merely just the final act, because the thoughtful acts have already been committed. We see people passed around like playing cards. We see the love of many waxed colder and colder. It is to the point where the indulgence of the flesh has become more important the the fulfilling aspects of love. Women are battered and bruised, and not just the body, but the heart. They are forver tormented by ungodly acts done to them, but men who supposedly loved them, but really don't even know the emotion, outside of the word used to enslave.

So how does this change? A suppose a better question would be, do we even want it to? I scream YES! This is where the Christian and the morals that God has instilled upon their heart should cry out,,,YES! We want this change, but only in a Godly way. I read the thread about the woman who went into a church wearing clothing unbecoming to that church, and I was floored by the responses. This is God's house, and some of the Christians made it seem like it was the pastor's wife that should be taken out back, and hung. Well, not like that, but I saw a kind of mob mentality there. Reminded me of the old west. The one place that she knew that should be sanctified and holy, and desired to keep it that way, and she was the one in the wrong, according to some Christians. Wow!

Now, back to the topic. Let us ask Hot this question. Do I see women who are pleasing to my eyes? Of course, as I am a man. Do I see women that would be good and pleasurable for sex? Again, of course I do, as I am, but a man. Would I even consider entertaining the thoughts of going against my wife of 20 years, whom I love with my every breath, to satisfy the thoughts of a man? Absolutely not! I don't even entertain the thoughts, as fantasy, for that is not what is in my heart. My wife is. My God is. My children are.

See there is more to lose, than there is to gain, by submitting to the will of the flesh. Since adultry is talked about, should not divorce also be talked about? Is not adultry the ONLY acceptable reason for divorce? What happens to the kids? What happens to the family? What happens to our covenant relationship with our spouse, AND our God. The risks are too great, for such a short pleasure cruise in another's bed.

But this is how I see this. Perhaps one of you may have learned something, but perhaps since it was 4 in the morning when I started, it is but the ramblings of a old man, pondering the wisdom that God has afforded me, along with my age.
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Old 08-24-2009, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Small Town USA
1,388 posts, read 1,410,310 times
Reputation: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Since we are talking about sexual thoughts, or other thoughts which a person may entertain here and there, being the natural humans we are, let us discuss this even further. In 1st John 2:16 we read:

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

We read from this profoundly simple verse that, the lusts of the flesh and eyes, and the pride of life, are not of the Father. Why would it say this? Did He not create us this way? Is it not natural for humans to lust? I mean, deep down, where the natural man sits in his natural state. Are we not but beasts with souls? Does not a baby lust? Does not a baby exibit pride?

You see, this sin was there from the beginning. Read about Eve. She saw that the tree of knowledge was good for food(lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasing to the eyes(lust of the eyes), but also that is had the possibility to make a person "wise"(the pride of life). Knowing good and evil, thus becoming "like" God. There were plenty of other trees there to satisfy the qualifications for food. There were perhaps multitudes of beautiful fruits there that were pleasing to the eyes. But that was not enough, for this tree had another forbidden aspect to it. It was the forbidden that caused mankind to fall.

It is this way with opposite genders. Some would say this is natural, to seek out the opposite sex, and mate. Not just mate, but sample. Not just sample, but indulge in thoughts about the sampling. Not just indulge the thoughts about sampling, but perhaps acting out the thoughts upon one's own self, or even a "lesser" person by fantisizing about another, while sampling, or mating. See how this ends up being something not natural?

God made a man and a woman to be in a deep covenant relationship surrounded in unconditional love. The kind that binds the flesh until the death of the body but lasts for eternity. All the sexual emotions that come from being a male, or female, should befall upon the other's spouse. It should be this way. It is supposed to be this way. Before they even consumate the marriage, the elders in both person's lives should explain all the functions of the bodies to the kids tying the knot. But, even the fantisies of their partner even should be discouraged. Why would I say this? Idol worship, plainly put. Anticipation, yes, but not lustful obsession.

How many people, upon thinking about something for so long, indulge in that which was in their hearts, burning with a once controlled desire, so that it becomes uncontrolled? This is why, Jesus said he who looks upon a woman with lust "in his heart", has committed the act already. But it actually goes a bit deeper than that. If a person is consumed by lust, then God is not there, because God and sin don't mix. If the thoughts are not pure, and we give them to God to help us deal with them, and He will, unless you need further "testing", then at which time, you are handed to the "tester". It may be this fine looking woman, or man, and opportunites may arise as part of the test. Happens every day. Sadly, many fail the test. Even the people we thught were above this, like leaders in the churches.

The lust and prideful inclinations that are rooted so deeply in the human heart, may actually manifest itself out, and the person then commits the act. But see, here it goes from bad to worse. The thoughts that were rooted so deeply in their hearts, which have now played themselves out to commit the acts, now involve other people. Now by thier actions, another has fallen. Woe to that person who places stumbling blocks. Want to hear something even more strange, still? You may be the "satan" used for the "testing" of another person. Remember Pharaoh's heart and how it was hardened to test the resolve of the Israelites?

So, yes. We are human beings. We were not always in this state of carnality, but society has brought us here. Moralities have gone down, and with this, the desires(lusts) and pride of this life have gone up. What was once considered "taboo", is now looked at as the norm. Women walk around leaving nothing to the imaginiations, displaying all of their natural beauty, and men also do the same. The act of sex, is merely just the final act, because the thoughtful acts have already been committed. We see people passed around like playing cards. We see the love of many waxed colder and colder. It is to the point where the indulgence of the flesh has become more important the the fulfilling aspects of love. Women are battered and bruised, and not just the body, but the heart. They are forver tormented by ungodly acts done to them, but men who supposedly loved them, but really don't even know the emotion, outside of the word used to enslave.

So how does this change? A suppose a better question would be, do we even want it to? I scream YES! This is where the Christian and the morals that God has instilled upon their heart should cry out,,,YES! We want this change, but only in a Godly way. I read the thread about the woman who went into a church wearing clothing unbecoming to that church, and I was floored by the responses. This is God's house, and some of the Christians made it seem like it was the pastor's wife that should be taken out back, and hung. Well, not like that, but I saw a kind of mob mentality there. Reminded me of the old west. The one place that she knew that should be sanctified and holy, and desired to keep it that way, and she was the one in the wrong, according to some Christians. Wow!

Now, back to the topic. Let us ask Hot this question. Do I see women who are pleasing to my eyes? Of course, as I am a man. Do I see women that would be good and pleasurable for sex? Again, of course I do, as I am, but a man. Would I even consider entertaining the thoughts of going against my wife of 20 years, whom I love with my every breath, to satisfy the thoughts of a man? Absolutely not! I don't even entertain the thoughts, as fantasy, for that is not what is in my heart. My wife is. My God is. My children are.

See there is more to lose, than there is to gain, by submitting to the will of the flesh. Since adultry is talked about, should not divorce also be talked about? Is not adultry the ONLY acceptable reason for divorce? What happens to the kids? What happens to the family? What happens to our covenant relationship with our spouse, AND our God. The risks are too great, for such a short pleasure cruise in another's bed.

But this is how I see this. Perhaps one of you may have learned something, but perhaps since it was 4 in the morning when I started, it is but the ramblings of a old man, pondering the wisdom that God has afforded me, along with my age.
I believe all that you stated is true, thought provoking, biblical, and inspiring. I am showing this post to my older kids.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:09 AM
 
8,785 posts, read 2,335,600 times
Reputation: 9982
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Hello, Verna.

June's been waiting for you.




"phew!"



June's doomed right out of the gate, before she even starts.




Okay, so until such time as June 'knows better' she's covered? She's okay? Can't be held "sinfully accountable" if she just (June, being "just June") honestly doesn't know better?



Now THIS ^ definately caught June's attention!

WHAT!?

Verna, dear: Do you actually mean to tell me that if you, I, or anyone else (June's thinkin' males, here, for the moment due to gender biased simplicity sake....) give into a lustful thought as some 'sweet little nothing' walks past them in the mall, with luscious long legs, a modestly short skirt, a (tastefully cut) shirt that just so happens to capitalize on what God's good grace happened to bestow upon them, (oh, and let's not omit the fact that she's tan!) and some poor guy who is window shopping just so happens to catch a glimpse of her out of the corner of his eye, and mentally goes "Mmmmmm...." that in his mind's naturally 'going there' (and naturally enjoying his few moments of self indulgence) that it's no different than if he actually had sex with her!?





With all due respect, June's just not buying it.

She means no disrespect what so ever as regards any male Christian's belief, devotion, dedication, etc., so forth and so on, BUT!

--If nothing else, if this "doctrine" or line of reasoning was truth/reality, then there is little question (based on the current demographics in the U.S.) that the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be able to pump out Depo Provera fast enough!!!! (A drug that inhibits the male sex drive.) Instead, they are making money hand over fist marketing Viagra! --Think about it!

Given the overwhelming number of Christians in our country, (think: demographics) then something's telling June that if what you are advocating is acceptably true, then men across America would be popping a little pink pill every morning in order to adhere to not sinning.

-And why?

BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN!

FWIW: Having sex in your head is not the equivalent of having actually gone out and committed the act. --And if it is, then let every Christian male go and wake up his sleeping wife right now, tonight, and tell her: "Baby, I"ve committed adultery." -June doesn't even wanna fathom the outcome of that one...Because chances are, your wife is gunna turn around and say "Yeah, well I've done the same to you!"

We're sexual beings.

Sex isn't the enemy. It's not a "bad thing!" "Lust" is not a "bad thing." June would think that it would be regarded as a gift from God. It's what allows you to enjoy making love to your wife/husband/partner...

"Fantasy" is not evil. It actually serves a purpose.

Why not address those aspects that inhibit/prohibit intimacy within a marriage/relationship as regards one's sex life? --That lead people to act on their thoughts and commit either physical or emotional "sins" of adultery? life?

(Because that is the real issue here...Not "sin.")




Now this June would believe. However, she would also believe that there are even some Christians out there who might tend to find it a tad "impractical and unrealistic" if they are being honest with themselves. -Or aren't in denial as regards the fundamental reality as it pertains to their sexuality.

June met a friend this morning. He was helping June. Doing her a favor. By your definition of "sin" June had already committed at least a dozen sins before noon. --With the same man! And something tells June that it more than likely was a mutual state of affairs.

-But hey, June's okay/accepting of that. We're human.



Yes, June absolutely agrees that we as human beings do possess the capacity to "control our thoughts." --But June's also here to tell you that it's not as simple as you put forth. The human sex drive, and intimacy cannot be reduced to a purely cognitive behavioral entity. Neither, therefore, can "sin." "Automatic thoughts" that lead to a follow through of 'fantasy' in one's mind is NOT the enemy.

The denial of it is. June knows her lover can see "twenty-something" females with far better bodies than Junes at the mall...

--But it's June's heart, mind, and soul that he loves, and thereby does.

June can accept that, along with his "sin."

And her own.

"Intimacy" and "love" cannot be reduced to a logical equation.

Thank God for that.


Take gentle care.

June, with all due respect, this is self deception and psycho-babble.
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Old 08-24-2009, 09:53 AM
 
7,462 posts, read 7,069,987 times
Reputation: 2834
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandgirl View Post
June, with all due respect, this is self deception and psycho-babble.
And June is willing to concede that perhaps some of what she wrote may well be.

However, June is also very aware of how much more easily one can say that they are able to "control their thoughts" than they are actually able to do so. "Thought blocking" is vastly different from changing one's attitudes, and thereby, one's thought process...(And subsequently, their abilitly to not sin.)

June also has a pretty darn good sense as to how difficult the process of "not thinking about" something (be it sex, drugs, or pink elephants) actually is in human beings.

But that's only been June's experience in this world and in her profession.

--Which is not to say that she isn't open to other perspectives of approaching the situation. She'd like to be more open to other aspects of approaching the situation.

...It's just that reality thus far hasn't born that out.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
6,946 posts, read 7,254,324 times
Reputation: 4114
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Sorry, but I disagree. There is a deeper work of the Spirit in a believer's life than occurs at conversion, or Jesus would not have commanded that we take up our cross. Paul would not have gone to such length regarding the necessity of the putting off the old man...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
While I would actually agree with this, it does not stop there. Picking up our crosses is repenting. Dying daily, and walking a new path, His path, His Way.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
What is the cross? It is an instrument used for one purpose: death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And you saw the result in that starting with Jesus. But it doesn't end there, for we have inherited eternal life. There is no death, but only life. When do you think this starts? When you are dead? Or rather when you are transformed?
The beginning was His cross, and just as He learned obedience through the things He suffered, so do we. You state there is no death, but I strongly disagree. The old man must be put to death daily. Jesus was not just talking about His own path when He said a grain of wheat must fall to the ground and die, or else it abides alone. Paul said we're fools if we don't see that death must precede resurrection - and that's not referring to the natural afterlife, but our rebirth.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
We can debate this as being a daily decision, a one-time about face, etc., but the fact is we are being molded into a complete, mature child of God.
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
As a bride being prepared. Which I keep saying over and over.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but you're saying that we're complete now? I'm saying that there is sin and death in the soul realm, and that has to be purged by fire, and that by the cross daily.


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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
There are hidden things in our very core that cannot be purged without surgery - or fire - and believing unto salvation is the beginning - not the end - of our walk.
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Again, are we saying the same thing here? What is trials and tribulations, but the purging and destruction of the "old self"?
Now we're talkin'.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Did Paul cease immediately from sin, or did his members betray him?
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Took him many many years over 14, but eventually he overcame the flesh. Chapter 7 describes this torment he went through, and chapter 8 of Romans explains the overcoming of the flesh, and being in the spirit, united with the Spirit of Christ.
We know it well - but that is a process he's describing that we must all take hold of. I fear that the majority of Christians don't realize the depth of their need, and the depth that God is going to in order to purge them.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
It's a process led by the Holy Spirit to change not only our decisions, but through those victories and losses to change the nature within us.
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Same things again.
Ok.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I will reiterate that it's the Spirit of God that does not sin. Was Jesus tempted? Absolutely - so what did He say about it?

The prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me. (John 14:30)
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And?
Picture it this way: Satan/sin can only feed where there is meat, and that meat is the carnal mind/life. If there is nothing for temptation to cling to, it's on to someone who does.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
There was no carnal life in Jesus (note: no earthly father, or Adam's nature).
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Then you are denying that Jesus came in the flesh, pure and simple.
No - I'm comparing the stark difference between the carnal life and life in the spirit; Jesus lived by the Father, and that's what we're to do. The more our life is replaced with His life, the less we have to struggle with sin. The communion with Him that you and Verna (among others) keep championing is important, but I maintain that without the work of the Spirit in our daily lives, we would never overcome sin. Salvation is always of the Lord.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
I submit to you my belief that every one who reads this has an element of carnality left in them, though we are in the process of being purified.
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And what happens when you ARE purified? Are you dead, literally?
I believe you can be fully purged, but I haven't seen it myself. Those that pass from this life aren't perfected - that's why I fully believe the grave is not the end, but rather the (intense) continuation of God's fire for believers. The more we cooperate and submit to His dealings now, the less required later.

Sounds like purgatory, I know - but all I see is people that don't fully reflect the nature of Christ.

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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Forgiven? Yes. Perfect? No. Should we strive to obey? Absolutely. But God is doing much more in us to please Him than we are, or ever could.
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
And we let Him do His work in us, but like I keep saying over and over. You are being prepared as a bride for Christ. Think Father will let you come to His Son blemished, filthy, and in unrepentant sin? I don't. How many times must a person repent before his unrepentance is but lip service and not a pure(from the heart) benevolent repentance out of our love for our King, His Father, and our fellow brothers and sisters??

Can a person just keep on sinning the same old sins, doing the same old things that are not pleasing to God, until they die, and then claim,,"YOU gave me this sinful flesh. YOU sent your Son to die for me. I could not stop sinning because it is YOUR fault God for making me this way. But heyyyy, you covered it, though. Thanks, and let me in"
We agree on this, it seems. The Father will not permit sin in His presence, that's why there is such a need for His fire in our lives. It's hypocritical for the Church to sit in judgment while the need for them to submit for the Kingdom's sake is more vital. (I believe it is they who will be used to bring in the latter-born, but they first must "lose their lives" and live solely - and fully - by Him.)

Sin won't even be an issue in them.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:09 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,057,834 times
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[quote]
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Originally Posted by sandgirl;
June, with all due respect, this is self deception and psycho-babble.[/quote
True eloquence is distinguished by brevity.

I think the point that Jesus made is being overlooked. The Pharisees were taught that the physical act of adultery was sin. Jesus said that if they made the choice to rebel and transgress the law they had already committed adultery in their hearts even though they had not completed the physical act.


God looks at the hearts....just because one has not had the opportunity to complete the act he is already guilty before God when he makes the choice.

HK
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:45 PM
 
Location: RI
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Earnest workers have no time for dwelling upon the faults of others. We cannot afford to live on the husks of others' faults or failings. Evil-speaking is a twofold curse, falling more heavily upon the speaker than upon the hearer. He who scatters the seeds of dissension and strife, reaps in his own soul the deadly fruits. The very act of looking for evil in others develops evil in those who look. By dwelling upon the faults of others, we are changed into the same image. But by beholding Jesus, talking of His love and perfection of character, we become changed into His image. By contemplating the lofty ideal He has placed before us, we shall be uplifted into a pure and holy atmosphere, even the presence of God. When we abide here, there goes forth from us a light that irradiates all who are connected with us. {GW 479.2}

By Beholding We Become Changed--article
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