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23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
Which is exactly why God sent His Son...so that through His death, and the shedding of His precious blood, we might have a right standing with God...so that we could have a relationship with God our Father...so we could approach Him in prayer, and He would hear us...so that our sins would be washed away...and if received...by faith IN Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, we would have the power of the Holy Spirit within us, that would ENABLE us to overcome sin in our lives!
June's doomed right out of the gate, before she even starts.
Okay, so until such time as June 'knows better' she's covered? She's okay? Can't be held "sinfully accountable" if she just (June, being "just June") honestly doesn't know better?
Now THIS ^ definately caught June's attention!
WHAT!?
Verna, dear: Do you actually mean to tell me that if you, I, or anyone else (June's thinkin' males, here, for the moment due to gender biased simplicity sake....) give into a lustful thought as some 'sweet little nothing' walks past them in the mall, with luscious long legs, a modestly short skirt, a (tastefully cut) shirt that just so happens to capitalize on what God's good grace happened to bestow upon them, (oh, and let's not omit the fact that she's tan!) and some poor guy who is window shopping just so happens to catch a glimpse of her out of the corner of his eye, and mentally goes "Mmmmmm...." that in his mind's naturally 'going there' (and naturally enjoying his few moments of self indulgence) that it'sno different than if he actually had sex with her!?
With all due respect, June's just not buying it.
She means no disrespect what so ever as regards any male Christian's belief, devotion, dedication, etc., so forth and so on, BUT!
--If nothing else, if this "doctrine" or line of reasoning was truth/reality, then there is little question (based on the current demographics in the U.S.) that the pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be able to pump out Depo Provera fast enough!!!! (A drug that inhibits the male sex drive.) Instead, they are making money hand over fist marketing Viagra! --Think about it!
Given the overwhelming number of Christians in our country, (think: demographics) then something's telling June that if what you are advocating is acceptably true, then men across America would be popping a little pink pill every morning in order to adhere to not sinning.
-And why?
BECAUSE WE'RE HUMAN!
FWIW: Having sex in your head is not the equivalent of having actually gone out and committed the act. --And if it is, then let every Christian male go and wake up his sleeping wife right now, tonight, and tell her: "Baby, I"ve committed adultery." -June doesn't even wanna fathom the outcome of that one...Because chances are, your wife is gunna turn around and say "Yeah, well I've done the same to you!"
We're sexual beings.
Sex isn't the enemy. It's not a "bad thing!" "Lust" is not a "bad thing." June would think that it would be regarded as a gift from God. It's what allows you to enjoy making love to your wife/husband/partner...
"Fantasy" is not evil. It actually serves a purpose.
Why not address those aspects that inhibit/prohibit intimacy within a marriage/relationship as regards one's sex life? --That lead people to act on their thoughts and commit either physical or emotional "sins" of adultery? life?
(Because that is the real issue here...Not "sin.")
Now this June would believe. However, she would also believe that there are even some Christians out there who might tend to find it a tad "impractical and unrealistic" if they are being honest with themselves. -Or aren't in denial as regards the fundamental reality as it pertains to their sexuality.
June met a friend this morning. He was helping June. Doing her a favor. By your definition of "sin" June had already committed at least a dozen sins before noon. --With the same man! And something tells June that it more than likely was a mutual state of affairs.
-But hey, June's okay/accepting of that. We're human.
Yes, June absolutely agrees that we as human beings do possess the capacity to "control our thoughts." --But June's also here to tell you that it's not as simple as you put forth. The human sex drive, and intimacy cannot be reduced to a purely cognitive behavioral entity. Neither, therefore, can "sin." "Automatic thoughts" that lead to a follow through of 'fantasy' in one's mind is NOT the enemy.
The denial of it is. June knows her lover can see "twenty-something" females with far better bodies than Junes at the mall...
--But it's June's heart, mind, and soul that he loves, and thereby does.
June can accept that, along with his "sin."
And her own.
"Intimacy" and "love" cannot be reduced to a logical equation.
Thank God for that.
Take gentle care.
If you desire the opposite sex to gratify the flesh and then commit towards that gratification then you commit sin the moment you commit.
Just because a great quantity of people have committed towards that gratification doesn't mean that it suddenly is NOT a sin because a majority have/are doing it.
Which is exactly why God sent His Son...so that through His death, and the shedding of His precious blood, we might have a right standing with God...so that we could have a relationship with God our Father...so we could approach Him in prayer, and He would hear us...so that our sins would be washed away...and if received...by faith IN Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, we would have the power of the Holy Spirit within us, that would ENABLE us to overcome sin in our lives!
In Christ's love,
Verna.
Question: just to clarify, are you saying that you never sin?
Just because a great quantity of people have committed towards that gratification doesn't mean that it suddenly is NOT a sin because a majority have/are doing it.
Paul
I don't think that is what I am saying.
What I am saying is that there is a vast difference between our automatic thoughts, and our actions. I can certainly understand how one can be "sinful" but I fail to see how the other can. That being said, I am hardly endorsing that people walk around seeking out venues by which to gratify their lust, be it consciously or otherwise. If I am in a relationship with someone who is constantly seeking out opportunities and venues in order to indulge his sexual fantasies with someone other than me, then that's a problem. I can certainly make the leap to saying "Yup. By a Christian's definition, that's a 'sin.'"
What I am talking about are the automatic thoughts that we as human beings have all the time. If I am in the mall, (or worse yet, at the beach where there are scores of women who look like June used to look!) and my boyfriend or husband notices them, how in the world can I fault him for that? (If he continues to stare at them with his tongue hanging out, then that's another thing, altogether.) --But for me to not acknowledge those aspects of our ourselves that are fundamentally human by nature somehow doesn't make sense to me. If I see a man who is really attractive, I can't help but think "Now this guy's really attractive!" and chances are I'm going to have "thoughts." It doesn't mean I have to go out of my way to have them.
A word on the sinfulness of automatic 'sinful thoughts' though: If I am secure in the relationship that I am in, if I know that the other person genuinelly loves me, then I am far less unnerved to know that the 21 year old tanned beauty in the string bikini who just walked by illicited in him an automatic sinful thought. It makes life that much easier, I would think. No? --Because I can't help but think that in that dynamic, it says as much about me as it does the thought that just popped into his head. I can acknowledge that she is extremely attractive; so can he. But it ends there. It's more or less a fundamental fact of human nature.
But to label automatic thoughts "sinful" means you've got to have an awful lot of people out there sinning a hundred times a day on a daily basis!
Oh well. I'm not a Christian, and I've not been to the beach lately with a boyfriend. (For which even this nonbeliever thanks God!)
I think a lot of people accuse their h/w, bf/gf of the sin of lust when perhaps they are finding an excuse to cover their insecurities of that ole green eyed monster called ..jealousy..
Question: just to clarify, are you saying that you never sin?
Sundance, I am going to answer this question honestly...and God hears and sees ALL things...
...I said that because from experience...whenever I have answered this before...the person who asked, or others reply in mocking my faith IN Christ...mocking my walk...but I'll stick my head out once again...(I'm sure only for it to be chopped off yet once again)...
...I would NEVER, EVER say that I never sin, because there are sins of ignorance that I am not aware of yet that I am sure I am committing...I WOULD say that I have NOT WILLFULLY SINNED since February of this year. I know what sin is...I recognize it when confronted by it...my sinful nature, (which is the nature we are all born with), will urge me to want to sin, but I come against those tempting thoughts IMMEDIATELY as I recognize them as sinful, and I know from God's Word that it is a test allowed by God, to see where my heart is. So, I want God to know that my heart is for Him and Him alone, and His will is what I choose above my own...so, before I allow my thoughts to go any further, I rebuke them...repent for even the thought...and I choose to do what is right in the sight of God...because I love Him, and I want to do what pleases Him.
1 Corinthians 10:13 says, There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: But God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
...This "way-of-escape," that God has made for us is the power of the Holy Ghost...the baptism of the Spirit of Christ...this awesome power enables us to overcome sin in our lives!
What I am saying is that there is a vast difference between our automatic thoughts, and our actions. I can certainly understand how one can be "sinful" but I fail to see how the other can. That being said, I am hardly endorsing that people walk around seeking out venues by which to gratify their lust, be it consciously or otherwise. If I am in a relationship with someone who is constantly seeking out opportunities and venues in order to indulge his sexual fantasies with someone other than me, then that's a problem. I can certainly make the leap to saying "Yup. By a Christian's definition, that's a 'sin.'"
What I am talking about are the automatic thoughts that we as human beings have all the time. If I am in the mall, (or worse yet, at the beach where there are scores of women who look like June used to look!) and my boyfriend or husband notices them, how in the world can I fault him for that? (If he continues to stare at them with his tongue hanging out, then that's another thing, altogether.) --But for me to not acknowledge those aspects of our ourselves that are fundamentally human by nature somehow doesn't make sense to me. If I see a man who is really attractive, I can't help but think "Now this guy's really attractive!" and chances are I'm going to have "thoughts." It doesn't mean I have to go out of my way to have them.
A word on the sinfulness of automatic 'sinful thoughts' though: If I am secure in the relationship that I am in, if I know that the other person genuinelly loves me, then I am far less unnerved to know that the 21 year old tanned beauty in the string bikini who just walked by illicited in him an automatic sinful thought. It makes life that much easier, I would think. No? --Because I can't help but think that in that dynamic, it says as much about me as it does the thought that just popped into his head. I can acknowledge that she is extremely attractive; so can he. But it ends there. It's more or less a fundamental fact of human nature.
But to label automatic thoughts "sinful" means you've got to have an awful lot of people out there sinning a hundred times a day on a daily basis!
Oh well. I'm not a Christian, and I've not been to the beach lately with a boyfriend. (For which even this nonbeliever thanks God!)
Take gentle care.
Hi June, even if your spouse lust for you to satisfy their own flesh it would be sin.
Thoughts are not sinful, it is committed to trangress God's Law that makes them sinful.
June, I'm a believer that Satan is NOT some other being that walks around and tempts people. I believe Satan is the disobedient nature of man that originates in our minds to cause us to cater to our SELF.
When Jesus was in the wilderness and was tempted of the Devil, I don't believe some other creature was present with Him, but rather the things that Jesus was being tempted with were arising out of His own mind and He was putting them down so as to not let those lusts "conceive" and bring forth sin. I believe the Serpent talking to Eve in the Garden was Adam talking in a spirit of disobedience attempting to lure Eve to take of the forbidden fruit. Because it was Eve that was given to Adam by God and I feel that Adam felt if he could get Eve to take of it then it would be "ok", he could then just blame it on Eve and say:
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
I believe in the scriptures in a very radical way compared to the mainstream but I have come to see a very different understanding then what many have about God's message. I'm also a universalist and believe God has the purpose, power, and persuasion to change every heart towards His ways and that He will not fail to do so.
Sundance, I am going to answer this question honestly...and God hears and sees ALL things...
...I said that because from experience...whenever I have answered this before...the person who asked, or others reply in mocking my faith IN Christ...mocking my walk...but I'll stick my head out once again...(I'm sure only for it to be chopped off yet once again)...
...I would NEVER, EVER say that I never sin, because there are sins of ignorance that I am not aware of yet that I am sure I am committing...I WOULD say that I have NOT WILLFULLY SINNED since February of this year. I know what sin is...I recognize it when confronted by it...my sinful nature, (which is the nature we are all born with), will urge me to want to sin, but I come against those tempting thoughts IMMEDIATELY as I recognize them as sinful, and I know from God's Word that it is a test allowed by God, to see where my heart is. So, I want God to know that my heart is for Him and Him alone, and His will is what I choose above my own...so, before I allow my thoughts to go any further, I rebuke them...repent for even the thought...and I choose to do what is right in the sight of God...because I love Him, and I want to do what pleases Him.
1 Corinthians 10:13 says, There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: But God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
...This "way-of-escape," that God has made for us is the power of the Holy Ghost...the baptism of the Spirit of Christ...this awesome power enables us to overcome sin in our lives!
In Christ's love,
Verna.
I understand completely Verna. The failure to distinguish between willful sin and sins of ignorance makes it impossible to understand and reconcile all of the verses about sin.
For example, the apostle John said:
“…if any man sin we have an advocate…”
At the same time John also taught that the child of God did not *commit* sin:
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
If the sin in 1John 2:1 is the same type of sin as 3:9 - John was would be contradicting himself because in verse 2:1 John says to the children of God “…if any man sin we have an advocate…” Yet in verse 3:9 John says “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.”
John is not contradicting himself – in 2:1 he is referring to sins of ignorance (which required atonement) and presumptuous (willful) sin in verse 3:9. John distinguished between unintentional sin in verse 2:1 and willful sin in verse 3:9 by using the word “commit”. To “commit” sin implies knowledge and intent.
I understand completely Verna. The failure to distinguish between willful sin and sins of ignorance makes it impossible to understand and reconcile all of the verses about sin.
For example, the apostle John said:
“…if any man sin we have an advocate…”
At the same time John also taught that the child of God did not *commit* sin:
1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
If the sin in 1John 2:1 is the same type of sin as 3:9 - John was would be contradicting himself because in verse 2:1 John says to the children of God “…if any man sin we have an advocate…” Yet in verse 3:9 John says “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.”
John is not contradicting himself – in 2:1 he is referring to sins of ignorance (which required atonement) and presumptuous (willful) sin in verse 3:9. John distinguished between unintentional sin in verse 2:1 and willful sin in verse 3:9 by using the word “commit”. To “commit” sin implies knowledge and intent.
HK
Amen.....and people know when they have committed presumptuous sin!!!
Psalm 19:7-14
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
the statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;
the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Moreover by them Your servant is warned, and in keeping them there is great reward.
Who can understand his error? Cleanse me from secret faults.
Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me.
Then I shall be blameless, and I shall be innocent of great transgression.
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my Redeemer.
The law of the Lord, the psalmist moves from general revelation in nature to special revelation in the Bible which goes beyond general revelation to demonstrate the moral nature of God's holiness.
The English word law translates Hebrew Torah, "guidance, teaching, instruction in the following verses synonyms occur, stating characteristics of the law. These indicate the godliness which is intended to result in God's revelation. His work is converting; it changes and saves. His revelation is clean, cleansing the human spirit from sin.
God's truth is to be desired because by it His servant is warned against sin, and in keeping it finds the reward of a fulfilled life.
The right response to God's revelation is to pray for His help with error, faults, and sins. God must dwell not only in nature and the Word, but in the human heart. David here indicates an understanding of inward sin. He recognized that through God's enabling a person may live a blameless life before God.
Presumptuous sins are sins against conscience and knowledge.
Blessings.....
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