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Again, please show me where we are to follow Christ except when we face hardships or it is uncomfortable? I suppose Job should have cursed God for everything he went through. God's ways are not our ways and God has a purpose for your life. Your life is not yours, but God's...
...at least it is supposed to be. So many fair-weather Christians who give their lives to God unless it's too hard. Abused? What about martyrdom? Would you be murdered standing firm in your faith in God, knowing He would be there for you? Apparently not. God would understand, right? He's a loving God that would understand if we sinned if it helped us have a better life, right?
...amazing.
Oh please, you sound like you have walked a mile in the boots of an abused spouse. What you sound like here is a cross between philistine giant and pharisee. Next you will be telling us God is the one doing the abusing to teach the spouse something.
I totally disagree. I do not believe that a CHRISTIAN SPOUSE would be an abusive spouse. I believe that if a spouse is physically abusive on an ongoing basis, then we have the right to count them as an unbeliever in our dealings with them.
So - we are allowed to count them as an unbeliever. Then if THEIR ACTIONS FORCE US TO LEAVE for the safety of ourselves and/or our children - then I think it is THEY who really left.
I think lots of people CLAIM to be Christians just to control their spouses and children - to make them feel like they can't leave biblically. I think this is absolutely diabolical.
So if you don't believe a Christian spouse would be abusive (which by the way I agree), then what was the point of you bringing up Matthew 18? You brought it up not me.
I don't think you understood what I said or what the scripture says. The scripture does not say that you can leave, it says if an unbeliever leaves, then LET THEM LEAVE. There is a huge difference in what the scripture is saying and what you are saying. Abuse is not a Biblically reason to leave a marriage as a believer. You are bound to that person unless they have decided to leave you.
That is the significance of vows. Can you imagine getting a mortgage on a house and then deciding after a year and after seeing all the issues with the house that you no longer want it and that you don't want to pay the mortgage? Do you think the mortgage company will accept your request? Those contracts are binding. The covenant of marriage that you take before God is even more serious.
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Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
And I speak as one who has lived in that situation, fearing for my life and the lives of my children - all at the hands of a man who claimed to be a Christian. Yeah - the same man who held a loaded gun to my head and said he was going to kill me - when I was five months pregnant. Because he was "depressed."
Give me a break!
I feel like I'm missing something. I think you are confusing me with someone else. When did I say anything about your husband being depressed? I did not know that you went through that and I am very sorry to hear that.
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Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I see what you're saying but I also think it's important for the men of a church or a community to step in to protect women and children from an abusive spouse - and to hold the spouse accountable for his actions.
If I had pressed charges, by the way, he definitely would have left me - because he would have gone to jail.
Of course, but you don't want to let everyone in your relationship. Sometimes those situations can do more harm than good. One of the issues especially becomes if someone has some type of bias towards your husband for example. Would that person be fit to help? That is what I mean. You have to use wisdom in deciding who to involve in that situation.
But if you're not free to remarry, then you're not free.
I think if the unbeliever leaves, then the Christian spouse is NOT BOUND - aka FREE.
And I think that when a spouse is physically abusive, he left the marriage by forcing you to leave for your own safety.
Again I say this with love, but I think you are misusing scripture and projecting it on your own situation. You were in a serious situation and you felt that you needed to leave. Very understandable. What you did, whether everything you did was right or not is between you and God, but speaking on what the scripture says literally, there is no way you can interpret someone departing being as the same as someone being physically abusive. I am sorry but you are trying to rationalize your decisions and using scripture out of context to do so.
I am not suggesting that anyone should continue to stay in an abusive relationship, especially one like what you described. I believe your safety and your children's safety comes first. But let's look at the reality here. I'm assuming you are living in the US, correct? Most states make use legal separation which allows you to be physically separated from your spouse, but still gives the opportunity to get your support or other things that are essential to you surviving. These processes are complicated, but most legal experts are going recommend these things even if you were to decide to go through with a divorce. It's important to recognize that a separation does not mean that the person isn't divorcing you, it's an opportunity to keep yourself and your kids away from a dangerous situation.
Let's be clear, no one, NO ONE on here is advocating any woman to stay with an abusive husband or vice versa. Please do not allow some of these posters to mislead you. I think anybody with an ounce of common sense would understand your reasoning for leaving your husband, but the issue here isn't if you should separate, but it's Biblically speaking, how should you deal with divorce.
If your ex-husband was claiming to be a Christian, then his fruit would show it. There would be no abuse, there would be repentance and there wouldn't be divorce. If he tires of you separating yourself from him, then would that be representative of the fruit of a Christian or an unbeliever?
I haven't avoided anything. If you believe that you are correct then prove it. The burden of proof is on you as Jesus clearly teaches that a marriage bond that is broken by a spouse is a sin against God except for infidelity or an unbelieving spouse. What more is there to say? We are called to 'carry our cross' for Christ. Why is this such a hard concept?
Who said the beater is a believing Christian- there is No fruit- there is no love, there is no covenant when he willfully harms the wife- and if he was a sexual deviant- weirdo- should she stay as well? The God I serve will not ever say it is OK to divorce- as He will never go against His own word- BUT he will forgive you if you do, and Loves yiu enough to to understand WHY-and will heal you and help you to find happiness and peace
All of you sin today- right this moment- we are all as filthy rag before God-- will He not forgive you? What makes you think He will NOT forgive divorce? It is the best course? - better than getting beat - if not let's try it on you- see how long you last- stop pointing a finger at ANY abused wife and cause her to succumb to any more horrors by reading these posts - Woman or man as well- be free. We are under grace and not the law- if he is a beater GO- NOW- the man has real deep issues you cannot fix. There is murder in his heart.
So if you don't believe a Christian spouse would be abusive (which by the way I agree), then what was the point of you bringing up Matthew 18? You brought it up not me.
I am a Christian. Matthew 18 was for me, for my guidance. Matthew 19 (and the other passages in which Jesus discusses divorce) are all used by Christians to help them make decisions about divorce. The ironic thing is that we tend to yank these verses out of context, which is always bad exegesis.
The context is that in every case, Jesus is talking about the SPIRIT of the law, and not the LETTER of the law. In some cases, He's talking to the Pharisees, who are trying to trip him up with the letter of the law That's ironic, because now Christians try to do the same thing, rather than looking at the spirit of the law. In the passages where He's talking about it to a multitude, once again, all the surrounding verses are meant to convey the SPIRIT rather than the letter of the law. They are not meant to be taken literally - if that was the case, we'd all be walking around minus a hand and an eye or two. None of us would have retirement plans or even a safe in our house. We'd never file a lawsuit, and if we ever got robbed, we'd take our shirts off and give them to the mugger as well.
But those examples are used by Jesus to convey what the SPIRIT of the law is - and the same goes for divorce. Divorce should never be for trivial reasons, or selfish reasons. Marriage ordained by God is so sacred that when He joins two people together, they should consider that for life.
But just like the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," there are exceptions to this rule.
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I don't think you understood what I said or what the scripture says. The scripture does not say that you can leave, it says if an unbeliever leaves, then LET THEM LEAVE. There is a huge difference in what the scripture is saying and what you are saying. Abuse is not a Biblically reason to leave a marriage as a believer. You are bound to that person unless they have decided to leave you.
No - I understand what you're saying - you don't understand what I'm saying. And I don't believe that YOU are saying what the Bible says.
I believe that when a person abuses someone to the point of forcing them to leave for their safety - then it's the abuser who has really left the marriage. When you FORCE someone to leave, you've forced the separation.
What you're describing is equivalent to locking someone in a room away from food and water, and then accusing them of starving themselves. Or of drugging someone and then saying that they didn't fight you off, so it couldn't have been rape because they allowed you to have sex with them.
If you chase someone out of the house with a knife, did they leave the house voluntarily? Would you be justified in saying, "She left of her own free will - she could have stayed. Heck, I WANTED her to stay. I didn't want her leave. I didn't leave - she did."
Wow, that's twisted.
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That is the significance of vows. Can you imagine getting a mortgage on a house and then deciding after a year and after seeing all the issues with the house that you no longer want it and that you don't want to pay the mortgage? Do you think the mortgage company will accept your request? Those contracts are binding. The covenant of marriage that you take before God is even more serious.
GENERALLY SPEAKING, a mortgage is binding. But there are exceptions based on unusual circumstances. For instance, if the bank was deceitful - if for instance, your loan docs show a fixed rate of 4 percent but after the closing, you realize that the bank snuck in terminology that raised the rate to 8 percent - you'd probably win the case to get out from under that particular mortgage and enter into a new one. If the seller had lied about owning a home you paid cash for, and you find out later, you can get your money back and the property reverts to the owner.
Many banks allowed people to refinance or to simply turn their property over to the bank during the financial crisis of 2008. Yes, this went on their credit, but not were they ALLOWED to leave the house, they were often FORCED to leave the house due to situations that were often totally beyond their control.
The spirit of the law is that when you buy a house, it's a very serious commitment. But even the law recognizes the fact that sometimes a person is deceived or simply unable to maintain a mortgage - and even the letter of the law can be compassionate in such cases.
I believe that God is much more compassionate than any mortgage company.
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I feel like I'm missing something. I think you are confusing me with someone else. When did I say anything about your husband being depressed? I did not know that you went through that and I am very sorry to hear that.
No, I'm not confused. I was just expounding on the idea of divorcing an abusive spouse, and giving some personal details.
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Of course, but you don't want to let everyone in your relationship. Sometimes those situations can do more harm than good. One of the issues especially becomes if someone has some type of bias towards your husband for example. Would that person be fit to help? That is what I mean. You have to use wisdom in deciding who to involve in that situation.
Respectfully, I think you're being very inconsistent. You are using the letter of the law, the literal meaning of NT teaching to state that divorce isn't allowed for abuse - and then you are disregarding the NT passages that CLEARLY state that when a believer sins against another believer, we are to use church authority, the authority of the pastor, and then of the elders, to approach that person and to hold them accountable - then if they continue even after those steps to sin against us, we are allowed to COUNT THEM AS AN UNBELIEVER in our dealings with them.
I find it interesting that you insist on such a literal interpretation of one part of the NT and then disregard the very clear instructions in another part of the NT. I'm sorry to say this, but it sounds like cherry picking scriptures to me.
And to clarify - I think that any spouse who forces his or her family to literally flee for their safety is really the one who has left the marriage. To take the position that "I will abuse you - endanger you - harm you and/or the kids but I WON'T LEAVE - and YOU CAN'T" is so evil and twisted - no, I cannot believe that God would sanction that.
Who said the beater is a believing Christian- there is No fruit- there is no love, there is no covenant when he willfully harms the wife- and if he was a sexual deviant- weirdo- should she stay as well? The God I serve will not ever say it is OK to divorce- as He will never go against His own word- BUT he will forgive you if you do, and Loves yiu enough to to understand WHY-and will heal you and help you to find happiness and peace
All of you sin today- right this moment- we are all as filthy rag before God-- will He not forgive you? What makes you think He will NOT forgive divorce? It is the best course? - better than getting beat - if not let's try it on you- see how long you last- stop pointing a finger at ANY abused wife and cause her to succumb to any more horrors by reading these posts - Woman or man as well- be free. We are under grace and not the law- if he is a beater GO- NOW- the man has real deep issues you cannot fix. There is murder in his heart.
I just want to clarify something. It is true that God forgives us, but we cannot willfully this regard his teachings and then ask for forgiveness later. At that point you are being presumptuous about his intentions to forgive and you are opening the door for sin. It's not about following the letter of the law, it's about your heart. If you have a heart to follow God, then that's what you will do, but if you decide that hey God you know what I know what you said about this situation, but I think I'm going to do it this way because I believe this is best. Do you know what that is called? It's called a lack of faith.
You never know what God can do in a situation to help you overcome. It's possible that God could have removed that abusive spouse out of the earth just because you are being obedient and he is protecting his children just as he promised. If you decide to create your own idea of right and ask for forgiveness later, then you are no longer trusting in God, you are trying to create your own solutions.
God says for you to submit to your spouse. He NEVER said submit to sin. It's not God's will for anyone to be an abusive marriage whether mentally or physically.
Again I say this with love, but I think you are misusing scripture and projecting it on your own situation. You were in a serious situation and you felt that you needed to leave. Very understandable. What you did, whether everything you did was right or not is between you and God, but speaking on what the scripture says literally, there is no way you can interpret someone departing being as the same as someone being physically abusive. I am sorry but you are trying to rationalize your decisions and using scripture out of context to do so.
Oh my gosh. I am so sorry but you are being very inconsistent. You want to take Matthew 19 literally? I'll believe you when you pluck out your eye or cut off your hand, or when you give your retirement account to someone else because you don't have to worry about God taking care of your needs.
I think that people who insist on taking ONE SNIPPET of Matthew 19 (and other similar passages) literally instead of in the spirit of the law, are taking scripture out of context. In ALL of Jesus' teachings on divorce - which He generally delivers along with all sorts of other FIGURATIVE teachings on prayer, and worry, and adultery, and spiritual pride, etc etc - when read in context, it is clear that these passages are not meant to be taken literally.
If you insist on such a literal perspective, cut your hand off the next time you use it to sin, or pluck out your eye the next time you look at something you shouldn't look at. At the very least, only pray in a closet (never standing in church!) and be sure you always apply oil to your head when you fast. Oh - and remember to fast by the way. You ARE fasting and putting oil on your head while doing so, on a regular basis aren't you?
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I am not suggesting that anyone should continue to stay in an abusive relationship, especially one like what you described. I believe your safety and your children's safety comes first. But let's look at the reality here. I'm assuming you are living in the US, correct? Most states make use legal separation which allows you to be physically separated from your spouse, but still gives the opportunity to get your support or other things that are essential to you surviving. These processes are complicated, but most legal experts are going recommend these things even if you were to decide to go through with a divorce. It's important to recognize that a separation does not mean that the person isn't divorcing you, it's an opportunity to keep yourself and your kids away from a dangerous situation.
I did legally separate from my husband before finally divorcing him. We separated, and then we went to counseling together for many months, and then we finally got back together again - to no avail. Within a few months, the abuse started back up again.
Yeah, and what an opportunity that was - my kids and I were financially devastated, I was juggling two jobs and the kids were suffering, and our lives were in limbo - totally at the mercy of whether or not this cruel man decided to straighten up and quit abusing us.
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Let's be clear, no one, NO ONE on here is advocating any woman to stay with an abusive husband or vice versa. Please do not allow some of these posters to mislead you. I think anybody with an ounce of common sense would understand your reasoning for leaving your husband, but the issue here isn't if you should separate, but it's Biblically speaking, how should you deal with divorce.
I believe that some people who claim to be Christians are saying just that - that I had no grounds for divorce. I've even heard some so called Christians claim that an abused wife should forgive her husband seven times seventy, that she should bear her trials as Jesus bore His on the cross. Sheeze!
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If your ex-husband was claiming to be a Christian, then his fruit would show it. There would be no abuse, there would be repentance and there wouldn't be divorce. If he tires of you separating yourself from him, then would that be representative of the fruit of a Christian or an unbeliever?
This is exactly why I do not believe he was or is a Christian. There is ZERO fruit in his life to attest to this - only a string of heartbroken wives and children (eight children to be exact).
Therefore, I was not married to a Christian - I was only married to someone who CLAIMED to be a Christian in order to try to control me and convince me that I could not leave him. But I believe that God allows us to consider some people unbelievers in our dealings with them in spite of their claims to be a Christian.
And I believe that abuse is an act of leaving a marriage. How can it be otherwise? God is not so twisted in His caring for Christian wives and children, that He would split hairs and say, "Yeah, he abused you and the kids but...HE DIDN'T LEAVE so you're just out of luck."
Let's use some common sense here. If I do something that I KNOW will create a separation, then did I choose to separate? If I do something that I KNOW will force someone else to leave, who really left? What's the difference between abusing someone to the point of them having to flee for their safety, and just packing a bag and walking out the door yourself? Does it really matter who actually leaves the premises in a case like that?
I just want to clarify something. It is true that God forgives us, but we cannot willfully this regard his teachings and then ask for forgiveness later. At that point you are being presumptuous about his intentions to forgive and you are opening the door for sin. It's not about following the letter of the law, it's about your heart. If you have a heart to follow God, then that's what you will do, but if you decide that hey God you know what I know what you said about this situation, but I think I'm going to do it this way because I believe this is best. Do you know what that is called? It's called a lack of faith.
You never know what God can do in a situation to help you overcome. It's possible that God could have removed that abusive spouse out of the earth just because you are being obedient and he is protecting his children just as he promised. If you decide to create your own idea of right and ask for forgiveness later, then you are no longer trusting in God, you are trying to create your own solutions.
Wow, I guess I should have just stayed there and let him kill the kids and me - and the dog for that matter (he threatened to do all of that). I really missed an opportunity for God to strike him down with a sudden heart attack! My faith was simply too weak.
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