Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
How did the Devil "setteth" Jesus upon the pinnacle of the Temple? Did Satan lay hands on Jesus? Also, how did Satan do this without the Jews ever recording it in the Talmud?
Paul
Satan although fallen, is still an angel. And angels are, if not supernatural, at least extra-natural. They have abilities beyond what we have. I don't know the precise means that Satan transported Jesus to the temple. Remember also, that Satan in some manner showed Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world from that one location on the mountain in Matthew 4:8.
Very little is written about Jesus in the Talmud. There's a difference of opinion regarding the passages that seem to be talking about him. And they wouldn't have recorded anything about Jesus that would have ben favorable since they were antagonistic toward him. Angels are normally invisible to us anyway, and it's possible that Satan could have kept them both invisible. Angels are beings of light and can certainly manipulate light. As you may know, science is already capable of a very rudimentary form of invisibility regarding certain kinds of materials. And angels are far more intelligent than we are. Or, it may of just been at night when Satan took him to the temple.
What you have to keep in mind is that the Bible speaks of Satan in no uncertain terms as being a person and not a personification.
Some of the demons that followed Satan are locked up in Tartarus, one of the compartments of Hades.
2 Peter 2:4. Only real beings can be locked up.
Satan although fallen, is still an angel. And angels are, if not supernatural, at least extra-natural. They have abilities beyond what we have. I don't know the precise means that Satan transported Jesus to the temple. Remember also, that Satan in some manner showed Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world from that one location on the mountain in Matthew 4:8.
Very little is written about Jesus in the Talmud. There's a difference of opinion regarding the passages that seem to be talking about him. And they wouldn't have recorded anything about Jesus that would have ben favorable since they were antagonistic toward him. Angels are normally invisible to us anyway, and it's possible that Satan could have kept them both invisible. Angels are beings of light and can certainly manipulate light. As you may know, science is already capable of a very rudimentary form of invisibility regarding certain kinds of materials. And angels are far more intelligent than we are. Or, it may of just been at night when Satan took him to the temple.
What you have to keep in mind is that the Bible speaks of Satan in no uncertain terms as being a person and not a personification.
Some of the demons that followed Satan are locked up in Tartarus, one of the compartments of Hades.
2 Peter 2:4. Only real beings can be locked up.
See I don't believe that Satan is a separate being. I believe Satan is the disobedient spirit of mankind. Eve when talking to Satan said "we". She would have had to either know Satan or knew that Satan knew Adam. To many things don't add up to me. Your explanations for example don't have biblical support in many cases. For example where do you get the angels are supernatural or extra natural? Angel - simply means messenger. Also, where do you get that Satan was ever unfallen. But mostly why would Satan tend to the things of man?
See I don't believe that Satan is a separate being. I believe Satan is the disobedient spirit of mankind. Eve when talking to Satan said "we". She would have had to either know Satan or knew that Satan knew Adam. To many things don't add up to me. Your explanations for example don't have biblical support in many cases. For example where do you get the angels are supernatural or extra natural? Angel - simply means messenger. Also, where do you get that Satan was ever unfallen. But mostly why would Satan tend to the things of man?
Paul
The woman,(not yet named Eve until after the fall) was in Gen 3:2 simply telling the serpent through which Satan was speaking, of the command that she and Adam had been given. We don't know what the serpent was like before the fall. All we know is that as a result of deceiving the woman, God cursed the serpent and told it, "On your belly you shall go, and dust shall you eat". This indicates that before it was cursed, it had legs and could walk. There was something special about it which set it apart. And Eve seems not to have thought there was anything unusual about the fact that it talked to her. Gen 3:1 says the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And that's all we know about it, except that we know that Satan was speaking through the serpent because in Gen 3:15 God said, "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed (Christ); He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." This was a prophecy of the strategic victory of Jesus Christ over Satan at the cross.
Angels are beings that do not have physical bodies as men do, but can appear as men. And though normally invisible to man, when they do appear in their angelic form, their appearance is such that men tend to worship them as John did in Rev 19:10.
There are differences among the angelic creation. There are angels and archangels, Principalities and Powers,and Dominions. There are Cherubim (Lucifer is a Cherubim) and Seraphim.
They are are stronger than men but not omnipotent. Psalm 103:20;
2 Peter 2:11.
They are greater than man in knowledge but not omniscient. 2 Samuel 14:20;
Matthew 14:36.
They are capable of traveling between Heaven and earth. Daniel 9:21-23 and
Daniel 10:10-14.
Read through the book of Revelation and see what angels are capable of doing. They are a higher creation than man, although in the future man will be made higher than the angels, and indeed, positionally we as believers in Christ already are higher. But ultimate santification, when we have been resurrected, will make us physically higher than the angelic creation.
So, yes. Angels are extra-natural creatures. But still creatures.
Satan (Lucifer) was created perfect as were all the angels.
Ezekiel 28:11-19 tells of Lucifers perfection and his fall. Ezekiel 28 has a double meaning. Although the King of Tyre is addressed at the beginning, once you get to verses 11-19 it is Satan that is being addressed. The things that are being said could not apply to any man, but only to Satan.
Isaiah 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" Since he fell, there was a time when he was not yet fallen.
You ask why would Satan tend to the things of man? The reason has to do with the angelic conflict. Briefly, when Satan rebelled against God, God sentenced him to the eternal lake of fire. But the sentence wasn't carried out immediately. God wanted to completely demonstrate and leave no doubt in any of His creation, that He was just in sentencing Satan as He did. He created man, gave man a volitional test,(the tree in the garden that he was commanded not to eat, but which God had always known that he would fail that test). And as a result of Adam's failure, God initiated the next phase in His overall plan and which is being fulfilled throughout human history.
What God is demonstrating is that if fallen man, who is lower than the angels, or inferior to the angels, and not having been in the presence of God, can by faith turn to God as God has revealed Himself in various ways throughout human history; then Lucifer and the rest of the angels who rebelled against God, even though they had lived in the presence of God and had seen Him; it is being shown that they had absolutely no excuse for their rebellion.
Satan therefore does everything in his power to prevent man from believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. He does everything in his power to prevent God from fulfilling His promises to Israel, such as restoring them to the land that He promised Abraham. Satan reasons that if he can screw up God's plan in any way, that God would then not be perfect and able to do all that He wills to do, and therefore would have to release Satan from his sentence to the lake of fire.
There is more detailed information about the angelic conflict if you want to research it.
We don't know what the serpent was like before the fall.
The serpent is not a snake. The serpent Is SATAN. "…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).
Quote:
All we know is that as a result of deceiving the woman, God cursed the serpent and told it, "On your belly you shall go, and dust shall you eat". This indicates that before it was cursed, it had legs and could walk.
Again,the serpent was actually satan. I don`t think it is talking about a literally snake. When he says dust you shall eat,I believe he is referring to man or man`s carnal mind. What is man? Man is earthy, man is dust. "…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).
What does satan do to man?
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).
Satan devours man,who is the dust of the earth.
The carnal mind is satan`s domain.
Quote:
There was something special about it which set it apart. And Eve seems not to have thought there was anything unusual about the fact that it talked to her.
That`s because she isn`t talking to a snake! She is talking to satan.
Quote:
Gen 3:1 says the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
A snake isn`t a beast. But satan is more crafty than any beast. Who is the beast in revelation? Some say the beast is you! Your carnal nature.
Quote:
And that's all we know about it, except that we know that Satan was speaking through the serpent because in Gen 3:15 God said, "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed (Christ);
And what is at enmity with God?
Romans8: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
The flesh or carnal (of satan)
is at enmity with the spiritual (of God)
So, I will put enmity between your seed (carnal)
and her seed (spiritual).
Jesus represents the spiritual.
Adam represents the flesh or carnal. The earthy man or fleshly man is at enmity with the spirtual man.
Quote:
There are Cherubim (Lucifer is a Cherubim)
Lucifer is not a cherubim. Lucifer is not satan. Satan was a liar and murderer from the BEGINNING! Satan was created to be God`s adversary but he appears as an angel of light, not the other way around like your church teaches you. The church says he was an angel of light but now is an angel of darkness.
Quote:
Satan (Lucifer) was created perfect as were all the angels.
Everything was created perfect FOR God`s purposes. Lucifer is not a hebrew word. It does not mean satan.
Quote:
Ezekiel 28:11-19 tells of Lucifers perfection and his fall. Ezekiel 28 has a double meaning. Although the King of Tyre is addressed at the beginning, once you get to verses 11-19 it is Satan that is being addressed. The things that are being said could not apply to any man, but only to Satan.
Doesn`t make any sense to change in mid stream and all of a sudden start talking about satan. Those things do apply to the king of tyre. If you do a word study on those verses it can become clear. Here is but an example:
Ezekial 17......I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
(Has anyone actually seen satan)
18By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
(what trade)
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
(Who has seen satan)
19All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
(Who knows satan among the peoples)
Quote:
Isaiah 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" Since he fell, there was a time when he was not yet fallen.
This is talking about babylon. Lucifer is not a hebrew word. Again..word study!
"How has thou (Babylon—see context) fallen from heaven, O Shining One (O howl)—Son of the Dawn! (Babylon conspicuous as Venus). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."
Quote:
You ask why would Satan tend to the things of man? The reason has to do with the angelic conflict. Briefly, when Satan rebelled against God, God sentenced him to the eternal lake of fire. But the sentence wasn't carried out immediately. God wanted to completely demonstrate and leave no doubt in any of His creation, that He was just in sentencing Satan as He did. He created man, gave man a volitional test,(the tree in the garden that he was commanded not to eat, but which God had always known that he would fail that test). And as a result of Adam's failure, God initiated the next phase in His overall plan and which is being fulfilled throughout human history.
What God is demonstrating is that if fallen man, who is lower than the angels, or inferior to the angels, and not having been in the presence of God, can by faith turn to God as God has revealed Himself in various ways throughout human history; then Lucifer and the rest of the angels who rebelled against God, even though they had lived in the presence of God and had seen Him; it is being shown that they had absolutely no excuse for their rebellion.
Satan therefore does everything in his power to prevent man from believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. He does everything in his power to prevent God from fulfilling His promises to Israel, such as restoring them to the land that He promised Abraham. Satan reasons that if he can screw up God's plan in any way, that God would then not be perfect and able to do all that He wills to do, and therefore would have to release Satan from his sentence to the lake of fire.
There is more detailed information about the angelic conflict if you want to research it.
This is standard church teaching. But if you seek the truth and do actual word studies and search words like lucifer you will find it has nothing to do with satan. Satan was a liar from the BEGINNING. He was created for the exact purpose of being God`s adversary. The only way we can know and appreciate God`s attributes is by having something to contrast it with. Every noble characteristic that you can think of can only be known by it`s opposite.
The serpent is not a snake. The serpent Is SATAN. "…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).
Again,the serpent was actually satan. I don`t think it is talking about a literally snake. When he says dust you shall eat,I believe he is referring to man or man`s carnal mind. What is man? Man is earthy, man is dust. "…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).
What does satan do to man?
"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:8).
Satan devours man,who is the dust of the earth.
The carnal mind is satan`s domain.
That`s because she isn`t talking to a snake! She is talking to satan.
A snake isn`t a beast. But satan is more crafty than any beast. Who is the beast in revelation? Some say the beast is you! Your carnal nature.
I never said snake. I said serpent. We don't know what it was exactly. And I said that Satan was speaking through the serpent.
Quote:
And what is at enmity with God?
Romans8: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
The flesh or carnal (of satan)
is at enmity with the spiritual (of God)
So, I will put enmity between your seed (carnal)
and her seed (spiritual).
Jesus represents the spiritual.
Adam represents the flesh or carnal. The earthy man or fleshly man is at enmity with the spirtual man.
Satan is the enemy of Christ.
Quote:
Lucifer is not a cherubim. Lucifer is not satan. Satan was a liar and murderer from the BEGINNING! Satan was created to be God`s adversary but he appears as an angel of light, not the other way around like your church teaches you. The church says he was an angel of light but now is an angel of darkness.
Lucifer is Latin. In Hebrew, Lucifer, son of the morning is 'Helel Ben Shachar'. But even that may not be his real name. It's entirely possible that ironically, the real name of Lucifer who wanted to exalt himself above God, is not even known to us. Lucifer is a cherub. Ezekiel 28:16 "...And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises jimself as an angel of light.
Satan is Lucifers title. It means accuser or adversary. Satan was not created to be Gods adversary.
Ezekiel 28 describes Lucifer who now fallen has the title of Satan.
28:12 "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the King of Tyre, and say to him, "Thus says the Lord God. "You had the seal of perfection. Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13) "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precius stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz, and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx, and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise, and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of you settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
14) "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15) "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created. Until unrighteousness was found in you.(Notice that Lucifer was created blameless, and then he became proud and unrighteousness was found in him. in other words he fell and gained the title of Satan.)
16) "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned;Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.
17) "Your heart was lifted up because of you beauty;
And notice that the descriptions in the above verses. These are things that cannot be said of any person, but are describing Satan who as verse 15 says, was created blameless and then unrighteousness was found in him because he became proud because of his beauty.
Quote:
Everything was created perfect FOR God`s purposes. Lucifer is not a hebrew word. It does not mean satan.
See above.
Quote:
Doesn`t make any sense to change in mid stream and all of a sudden start talking about satan. Those things do apply to the king of tyre. If you do a word study on those verses it can become clear. Here is but an example:
Ezekial 17......I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
(Has anyone actually seen satan)
18By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
(what trade)
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
(Who has seen satan)
19All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
(Who knows satan among the peoples)
Again, Ezekiel 28 has a double meaning. Some of it is addressed to the King of Tyre. And some of it is directed to Satan. No man is described as an anointed cherub that covers. No man is described as being in Eden, the garden of God. (And this is not the garden of Eden.)
Quote:
This is talking about babylon. Lucifer is not a hebrew word. Again..word study!
"How has thou (Babylon—see context) fallen from heaven, O Shining One (O howl)—Son of the Dawn! (Babylon conspicuous as Venus). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."
See above
Quote:
This is standard church teaching. But if you seek the truth and do actual word studies and search words like lucifer you will find it has nothing to do with satan. Satan was a liar from the BEGINNING. He was created for the exact purpose of being God`s adversary. The only way we can know and appreciate God`s attributes is by having something to contrast it with. Every noble characteristic that you can think of can only be known by it`s opposite.
As shown above and as the Bible clearly reveals, Lucifer is Satan, and God does not create any creature in a fallen state. His very nature, His Holiness doesn't allow it. God cannot act contrary to His nature.
And again, Satans first fall (his moral fall) is described in Isaiah 14:13,14; and his second fall which occurs in the middle of the tribulation is mentioned in
Isaiah 14:12. AND, his third fall is described in Isaiah 14:15 where he is brought down to hell.
The woman,(not yet named Eve until after the fall) was in Gen 3:2 simply telling the serpent through which Satan was speaking, of the command that she and Adam had been given. We don't know what the serpent was like before the fall. All we know is that as a result of deceiving the woman, God cursed the serpent and told it, "On your belly you shall go, and dust shall you eat". This indicates that before it was cursed, it had legs and could walk. There was something special about it which set it apart. And Eve seems not to have thought there was anything unusual about the fact that it talked to her. Gen 3:1 says the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And that's all we know about it, except that we know that Satan was speaking through the serpent because in Gen 3:15 God said, "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed (Christ); He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." This was a prophecy of the strategic victory of Jesus Christ over Satan at the cross.
Angels are beings that do not have physical bodies as men do, but can appear as men. And though normally invisible to man, when they do appear in their angelic form, their appearance is such that men tend to worship them as John did in Rev 19:10.
There are differences among the angelic creation. There are angels and archangels, Principalities and Powers,and Dominions. There are Cherubim (Lucifer is a Cherubim) and Seraphim.
They are are stronger than men but not omnipotent. Psalm 103:20;
2 Peter 2:11.
They are greater than man in knowledge but not omniscient. 2 Samuel 14:20;
Matthew 14:36.
They are capable of traveling between Heaven and earth. Daniel 9:21-23 and
Daniel 10:10-14.
Read through the book of Revelation and see what angels are capable of doing. They are a higher creation than man, although in the future man will be made higher than the angels, and indeed, positionally we as believers in Christ already are higher. But ultimate santification, when we have been resurrected, will make us physically higher than the angelic creation.
So, yes. Angels are extra-natural creatures. But still creatures.
Satan (Lucifer) was created perfect as were all the angels.
Ezekiel 28:11-19 tells of Lucifers perfection and his fall. Ezekiel 28 has a double meaning. Although the King of Tyre is addressed at the beginning, once you get to verses 11-19 it is Satan that is being addressed. The things that are being said could not apply to any man, but only to Satan.
Isaiah 14:12 "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!" Since he fell, there was a time when he was not yet fallen.
You ask why would Satan tend to the things of man? The reason has to do with the angelic conflict. Briefly, when Satan rebelled against God, God sentenced him to the eternal lake of fire. But the sentence wasn't carried out immediately. God wanted to completely demonstrate and leave no doubt in any of His creation, that He was just in sentencing Satan as He did. He created man, gave man a volitional test,(the tree in the garden that he was commanded not to eat, but which God had always known that he would fail that test). And as a result of Adam's failure, God initiated the next phase in His overall plan and which is being fulfilled throughout human history.
What God is demonstrating is that if fallen man, who is lower than the angels, or inferior to the angels, and not having been in the presence of God, can by faith turn to God as God has revealed Himself in various ways throughout human history; then Lucifer and the rest of the angels who rebelled against God, even though they had lived in the presence of God and had seen Him; it is being shown that they had absolutely no excuse for their rebellion.
Satan therefore does everything in his power to prevent man from believing in Jesus Christ for salvation. He does everything in his power to prevent God from fulfilling His promises to Israel, such as restoring them to the land that He promised Abraham. Satan reasons that if he can screw up God's plan in any way, that God would then not be perfect and able to do all that He wills to do, and therefore would have to release Satan from his sentence to the lake of fire.
There is more detailed information about the angelic conflict if you want to research it.
I think alot of those scriptures your quoting is misunderstood. But again, where is the MOTIVE in scripture for Satan to TEND to the things of man?
I think alot of those scriptures your quoting is misunderstood. But again, where is the MOTIVE in scripture for Satan to TEND to the things of man?
Paul
I'm sorry. I thought I was clear. Satans motive in tending to the things of man is to avoid his sentencing to the lake of fire from being executed. Satan still trys to run this world that he is the ruler of in an attempt to exalt himself.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 says, 'who opposes and exalts himself above every so called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displayng himself as being God.'
This is referring to the anti-christ who is sponsored by Satan.
Satan also seeks to mar and neutralize the life and testimony of believers, and to get them to doubt God in order to discredit God and His plan and therefore prolong his existence in his unceasing warfare against God.
The scriptures that I quoted are quite clear and are indeed referring to Satan.
Two excellant books on Satan are;
'The Invisible War' by Donald Grey Barnhouse, and 'Satan, His Motive and Methods' by Lewis Sperry Chafer.
They would greatly increase your understanding of the angelic conflict.
I'm sorry. I thought I was clear. Satans motive in tending to the things of man is to avoid his sentencing to the lake of fire from being executed. Satan still trys to run this world that he is the ruler of in an attempt to exalt himself.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 says, 'who opposes and exalts himself above every so called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displayng himself as being God.'
This is referring to the anti-christ who is sponsored by Satan.
Satan also seeks to mar and neutralize the life and testimony of believers, and to get them to doubt God in order to discredit God and His plan and therefore prolong his existence in his unceasing warfare against God.
The scriptures that I quoted are quite clear and are indeed referring to Satan.
Two excellant books on Satan are;
'The Invisible War' by Donald Grey Barnhouse, and 'Satan, His Motive and Methods' by Lewis Sperry Chafer.
They would greatly increase your understanding of the angelic conflict.
So how do you explain the fact that man is said to be given dominion but Satan is called the god of this world? Who has the rule of this world - is it man or is it Satan?
So how do you explain the fact that man is said to be given dominion but Satan is called the god of this world? Who has the rule of this world - is it man or is it Satan?
Paul
God did give Adam dominion over the earth, but at the fall Satan gained rulership over the earth. Satan is the god of this age. The ruler of this world. He made a legitimate offer to Jesus, that if Jesus would worship him, then Satan could have given the kingdoms of the world to Christ. At the millennium, when Christ is ruling on the throne of David, ownership of the world will revert back to man (Jesus Christ).
God did give Adam dominion over the earth, but at the fall Satan gained rulership over the earth. Satan is the god of this age. The ruler of this world. He made a legitimate offer to Jesus, that if Jesus would worship him, then Satan could have given the kingdoms of the world to Christ. At the millennium, when Christ is ruling on the throne of David, ownership of the world will revert back to man (Jesus Christ).
But here is another problem them. It says that the Serpent was more subtle then all the beast that God had made. Could he really be more subtle than the very creature that God was making in His own likeness?
Paul
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
