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Old 09-03-2009, 12:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus died twice on the cross.
2)After he had paid the penalty for our sins, Jesus Christ then died physically. He dismissed his spirit and brought his own life to an end. The crucification did not kill him. His work was done and he died, so that he could go to the next step. His spirit went into the presence of the Father, his body went into the tomb, and his soul went down into Paradise. Three days later, his body,soul, and spirit reunited, and his body was resurrected. As a result, our bodies will be resurrected.

Resurrection always refers to the body. Never to the soul.

I thought resurrection referred to the dead - the person, not just the body. See 1 Cor 15:

1 Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

Also I don't see the 2 deaths of Jesus that you see.

Matt 27:45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."
48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.


Where do you get that Jesus died "spiritually"?


After the 9 hours, Jesus died, and was in the grave for 3 days. He was not in heaven, nor in hell preaching. He was dead, because Jesus died for our sins. Like 1 Cor 15 says, if Jesus wasn't actually dead, but was only "alive" in another location, then He didn't actually die for our sins. If there was no resurrection of the dead, then what hope is there? No, Jesus died, was dead, and then was resurrected after 3 days (not immediately to go preach elsewhere). That is our hope, that we will be resurrected. Jesus is the proof that it will happen.

Just my current understanding of scripture.

Peace.
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Not only did I give some verses, I bolded them as well.

These are not my own private interpretations, this is sound, correct Biblical teaching as taught by men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, and who was a professor of Systemic Theology; and Robert B. Thieme, Jr. who was pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas for over 50 years.
None of the verses you gave say that the soul is conscious in heaven. I know these are not your own private interpretions. This is what you have been taught. That is my point. Notice you said INTERPRETATIONS. The scriptures you have do not say anything about the SOUL going to heaven iimmediatelym after death. That is the INTERPRETATION from people. The bible says, the soul who sins shall die. Was the soul of the rich man in the parable dead?
Why all the fuss over a resurrection if you are happy in heaven? Why is it the blessed hope? Can we see our loved ones being tortured?

Last edited by spm62; 09-03-2009 at 01:14 PM..
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
This post would have been better to just have typed these words, and left all the rest of what "you" believe out of it. Otherwise you do the same as the churches do, by inserting your beliefs.
Oh,we are not supposed to state what we believe and why? Then why do YOU even post on here? Why don`t we all just post the words..read the bible and leave it at that? You totally miss the point.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:59 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
You mention the soul being seperate from the body, but give no scripture to support that claim. Once again you`re making the mistake that a lot of people make...trying to make the bible fit YOUR doctrine instead of letting your doctrine fit the bible. What is your soul? Look to the bible for your answer. Don`t look for your chuchology to define it. In Genesis,the bible says...God breathed into man`s body the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul. Man`s soul wasn`t living before that. It doesn`t say he put into man a living soul. Living soul is what man BECAME. He became a living soul when God`s breath of life united with his man`s body. The soul is man`s being. It is who you are. At death then, the oppsite must be true. We know the spirit or breath of life goes back to God from whence it came.. The body goes back to the dust where it came. They will not be reunited until the resurrection. When they are reunited then man BECOMES a living soul once again. If man`s soul was already alive then why does he BECOME a living soul after the breath of life unites with his body? What and where was the soul before then?
Man was originally created as a trichotomous being, having body, soul, and spirit. When Adam sinned, he lost his human spirit and died spiritually. He lost his relationship with God. Thereafter, every member of the human race is born as a dichotomous being; that is body and soul. Since he is born without a human spirit he is born spiritually dead. When a person believes in Jesus Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and imputes it to the body of the new believer and God the Father imputes both His eternal life and His perfect righteousness to the human spirit and because He sees His own righteousness in us, He then pronounces us justified.

Now, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 distinquishes between the body, the soul, and the spirit. All three are mentioned in this one passage.
'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you; and may your spirit, and soul, and body be preserved complete without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And in Matthew 10:28, we see the distinction between the soul and the body.
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The Bible quite clearly identifies the soul, spirit, and body, as separate and distinct from each other.

The soul is the real you. Your body is only a house, or tent, in which you dwell while on this earth. When you die physically, the soul (the real you) vacates the body and in the case of the believer, goes into the presence of God. Therefore, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 'absent from the body and to be present with (face to face with) the Lord.


Quote:
What would be the need for a resurrection if you are happy, walking,talking,able to feel,rejoicing,singing, praising God in paradise. Why the need to come back down,get a body ,then go back up to heaven again. In the parable of the rich man, he is talking to Abraham. He is able to feel pain and suffering. He is able to think. He is able to reason. The bible says the dead know nothing. But according to you, the dead know a lot, if you believe the parable of the rich man is no parable. The rich man seemed to know a lot of things. Also if you believe the rich man is no parable then you have to believe we will be able to see our loved ones in hell suffering and screaming out in agony while we are having a grand ole time in paradise. This is totally contradictary to scripture,imo.

Just as Jesus was resurrected, it is God's plan and purpose that we all have resurrected bodies which we will inhabit for all eternity.

Before Christ was resurrected, the dead, both saved and unsaved went to Hades. And the compartments of Hades (Paradise and Torments) were separated by a great gulf. They were able to see each other. Now that believers are in Heaven and the unsaved are still in Hades, those who are in Heaven cannot see those who are in Hades.
And in the future state, when believers are inhabiting the New Jerusalem which will be suspended above the earth, and those who are now in Torments have been transferred to the eternal Lake of Fire, there will be no contact, no awareness of believers of those who are in the Lake of Fire.

Quote:
The bible refers to death being like sleep over and over. So what kind of state are you in when you sleep? You are in an unconscious state. To understand the bible you have to look at the whole of scripture. You have to make it all harmonize. You cannot just take a verse here and there,ignore all the others, and then form a doctrine. IMO, that is what the church does all the time.
Yes, and it (sleep) is always, without exception referring to the body. Not the soul. The Bible must be interpreted in the time in which it was written. The Jews understood that the term 'sleep' was in reference to the death of the body. Because the death of the body is temporary (because of the resurrection), God views it ( the body ) as being asleep.


Quote:
You can call it soul sleep or whatever you want but I don`t refer to it as soul sleep. I just refer to death like the bible does,like Jesus did. The bible says death is like sleep. It doesn`t mean because you look like you are asleep. A skeleton lying in a grave doesn`t look like a person sleeping. It is like sleep because you are in an unconscious state and will arise again one day. That is why Jesus and the apostles put some much emphasis on the resurrection. That is the blessed hope. Why all the fuss over a resurrection if you are happy in heaven? Why is it the blessed hope? Why is it the thing we all look forward to? Pray to God for understanding and open your mind to something other than what you`ve been taught. Let God lead you and be willing to let go of your churchology.
If you will refer to one of my other posts on this same thread, you will see the seven different classifications that the Bible gives to death. Spiritual death, the second death, physical death, temporal death, positional death, operational death, and sexual death.

Now compare Luke 16:19-36 with 2 Corinthians 12:2-5, and with
Ephesians 4:8-10. You will see Paradise first identifed as being in Hades and then after the Lord's resurrection, it is identified as being in the third Heaven, along with the saints.

You must decide for yourself whether you believe the Word of God, or not.

And I again remind anyone reading this, that this is not my own private interpretation but is the teaching some of the greatest theologians of the twentieth century.

For some of you reading this, it will just go right over your heads. But it is for those who, reading this, will gain understanding, that I am posting this material.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:49 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I thought resurrection referred to the dead - the person, not just the body. See 1 Cor 15:

1 Cor 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

Also I don't see the 2 deaths of Jesus that you see.

Matt 27:45 From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."
48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.


Where do you get that Jesus died "spiritually"?


After the 9 hours, Jesus died, and was in the grave for 3 days. He was not in heaven, nor in hell preaching. He was dead, because Jesus died for our sins. Like 1 Cor 15 says, if Jesus wasn't actually dead, but was only "alive" in another location, then He didn't actually die for our sins. If there was no resurrection of the dead, then what hope is there? No, Jesus died, was dead, and then was resurrected after 3 days (not immediately to go preach elsewhere). That is our hope, that we will be resurrected. Jesus is the proof that it will happen.

Just my current understanding of scripture.

Peace.
What you must understand is that the penalty for sin was not physical death, but rather the penalty was spiritual death. God warned Adam in Gen 2:17 (in the original Hebrew) 'but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, dying, you shall die.'

The english translation doesn't give you what the Hebrew is saying.

The first reference to dyng is spiritual death. And spiritual death is being in a state of separation from God while you are still physically alive. It means you are not able to have a relationship with God. The very moment Adam ate of the fruit he died spiritually. Immediately.
The second reference to death is a reference to physical death. Adam died physically some 900 plus years later. He died physically as a result of his spiritual death. 'dying you shall die.'

Since the penalty for sin was spiritual death, the substitutionary death that Christ died for us had to be a spiritual death. Christ was physically alive while he was being judged for our sins. But he was in a state of separation from God while being judged for those sins. And that is his spiritual death. God the Father could not maintain the relationship with Christ that He had had, while Christ was being judged. All the sins of the human race that would ever be committed were being borne in Christ's body and God had to judge them, and break (temporarily) the relationship between them. This caused unmaginable agony for Christ.
But when the last sin had been judged, then Jesus died physically, and three days later he was resurrected. Therefore, two deaths. One spiritual, one physical.

NO. Resurrection always refers to the physical body. (Well, in other words, it is only the body that enters into a state of decay, and must therefore undergo an act of resurrection. The soul and spirit do not see corruption. They simply go back into the resurrected body.) The body is resurrected and the soul and the human spirit rejoin it. The distinction between the body, soul, and spirit is made in 1Thessalonians 5:23. 'Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete.

While Jesus' body was in the cave, the tomb, his soul went both to Tartarus to inform the imprisoned fallen angels that had been involved in the antedeluvian angelic infiltration of the human race; that he had gone to the cross and achieved a stratigic victory over Satan. As is mentioned in 1 Peter 3:19,20. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, Which were sometime disobedient.'

He then went to Paradise and brought out of Paradise, the saints that were there, and led them into the Third Heaven. Eph 4:8-10. 'Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN". 9) (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10) He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

Last edited by Michael Way; 09-03-2009 at 03:17 PM..
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Old 09-03-2009, 03:04 PM
 
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Regarding the spiritual/physical death, I can see your point. The wages of sin is spiritual death & physical death.

However resurrection is of the dead, not the body. Sorry, I'll have to go with what scripture says (1 Cor 15:12-13).

Back to the OP, if when we are dead, we are actually alive in another location, then we are not really dead. Our body can't be dead while the person is still alive. Are we alive or dead then? We can't be both alive & dead. It doesn't make sense. Pop-culture and myth have led to the idea of ghosts floating around "alive" without bodies, etc, but it is not scriptural.

Scripture tells us the dead know nothing, and there is no knowledge in the grave (Ecc 9:5-10). Death is referred to as sleep on numerous occasions, because the dead are unconscious. When we sleep, its not only our "body" that sleeps, its our persona, our identity that also sleeps.

Here is a short article that gives some more scriptures:
AN ENCOURAGING THOUGHT ABOUT DEATH

The video I posted above also explains it well. Peace...
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Man was originally created as a trichotomous being, having body, soul, and spirit.
What scripture says that? What about gen. where it says man BECAME a living soul? Man was formed from the dust,God breathed into him the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul. Why do you disregard those scriptures?
Quote:
When Adam sinned, he lost his human spirit and died spiritually. He lost his relationship with God.
He lost his spirit? Don`t we worship God in spirit? How can we do that if we don`t have a spirit? Once again,what scripture says he lost his spirit?

Quote:
Thereafter, every member of the human race is born as a dichotomous being; that is body and soul. Since he is born without a human spirit he is born spiritually dead. When a person believes in Jesus Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit and imputes it to the body of the new believer and God the Father imputes both His eternal life and His perfect righteousness to the human spirit and because He sees His own righteousness in us, He then pronounces us justified
Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit. (Job 10:12)
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8)
For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me. (Job 32:18)
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah God of truth. (Psalm 31:5)
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:21)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Isaiah 26:9)
The burden of the word of Jehovah for Israel, saith Jehovah, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. (Zechariah 12:1)

For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. (Acts 23:8)
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; (Romans 1:9)
The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 5:5)
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Quote:
The Bible quite clearly identifies the soul, spirit, and body, as separate and distinct from each other.
It is true they are seperate. The soul isn`t the body and the spirit isn`t the soul. The soul is you,it is your being. What does the bible say will happen to the soul who sins?



Quote:
Yes, and it (sleep) is always, without exception referring to the body. Not the soul.
What happens to the soul who sins?


Quote:
The Bible must be interpreted in the time in which it was written. The Jews understood that the term 'sleep' was in reference to the death of the body. Because the death of the body is temporary (because of the resurrection), God views it ( the body ) as being asleep.
Once again, you can`t give scripture to support your views. What scripture says God is referring to the body only.
What happens to the soul who sins?

Quote:
If you will refer to one of my other posts on this same thread, you will see the seven different classifications that the Bible gives to death. Spiritual death, the second death, physical death, temporal death, positional death, operational death, and sexual death.
If you will look back at those same threads, you will see how you were refuted on every point. You will see how you totally ignore scripture that say the exact opposite of what you believe.

Quote:
Now compare Luke 16:19-36 with 2 Corinthians 12:2-5, and with
Ephesians 4:8-10. You will see Paradise first identifed as being in Hades and then after the Lord's resurrection, it is identified as being in the third Heaven, along with the saints.
Do you know what hades is? What happens to the soul who sins?

Quote:
You must decide for yourself whether you believe the Word of God, or not.
so far you ignore the word of God and would rather believe the word of mean.

Quote:
And I again remind anyone reading this, that this is not my own private interpretation but is the teaching some of the greatest theologians of the twentieth century.
Thanks for pointing this out. Once again, you admit that you just follow the teaching of men and their interpretations.
Quote:
For some of you reading this, it will just go right over your heads. But it is for those who, reading this, will gain understanding, that I am posting this material.
For those reading this, i would ask that you read God`s word for yourself and pray on the matter. Dont`t do as this poster has admitted to doing and giving himself over to the teachings of men. Search for the truth. Study to show yourself approved.
Consider the following scriptures that this poster ignores.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezek 18:4
Notice the soul DIES. It doesn`t live on in some torture chamber somewhere.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Gen 2:7
Notice man BECAME a living soul. Soul is not part of man, it is his being. It is who you are. It is what you are when the breath of life and the body unite. God can destroy your body and your being. He can destroy the whole you. An immortal soul cannot die. But as we have shown with scripture,the soul does indeed die. The soul who sins DIES. Therefore it cannot be immortal. It cannot live on in torture. It Dies. Only God can grant immortality.

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:20)
Do we glorify God in our soul? The soul is our being. Again, we have shown with scripture that man becomes a living soul,when? When the breath of life or spirit unites with the body.

There is one body, and one spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Ephesians 4:4)
One Body, One spirit. They are what makes up a man. Nothing about soul here. Soul is what man is when the body unites with the spirit.

Where did this idea of the soul having immortality come from? Let`s take a look.

Socrates explained that the immortal soul, once freed from the body, is rewarded according to good deeds or punished for evil. Socrates lived ca. 470-399 B.C., so his view of the soul predated Christianity.

Plato (ca. 428-348 B.C.) saw man's existence as divided into the material and spiritual, or "Ideal," realms. "Plato reasoned that the soul, being eternal, must have had a pre-existence in the ideal world where it learned about the eternal Ideals" (William S. Sahakian, History of Philosophy, 1968, p. 56). In Plato's reasoning, man is meant to attain goodness and return to the Ideal through the experiences of the transmigration of the soul. Thus secular philosophies sanction the idea of the immortal soul, even though the Bible does not.

Origen (ca. 185-254) was the first person to attempt to organize Christian doctrine into a systematic theology. He was an admirer of Plato and believed in the immortality of the soul and that it would depart to an everlasting reward or everlasting punishment at death.
In Origen De Principiis he wrote: "... The soul, having a substance and life of its own, shall after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this ..." (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, 1995, p. 240).

Later Augustine (354-430) tackled the problem of the immortality of the soul and death. For Augustine death meant the destruction of the body, but the conscious soul would continue to live in either a blissful state with God or an agonizing state of separation from God.
In The City of God he wrote that the soul "is therefore called immortal, because in a sense, it does not cease to live and to feel; while the body is called mortal because it can be forsaken of all life, and cannot by itself live at all. The death, then, of the soul, takes place when God forsakes it, as the death of the body when the soul forsakes it" (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, 1995, p. 245.)

Centuries later Thomas Aquinas (ca. 1225-1274) crystallized the doctrine of the immortal soul in The Summa Theologica. He taught that the soul is a conscious intellect and will and cannot be destroyed.

So we can see the pagan roots of this concept.
The Hebrew word translated "soul" in the Old Testament is nephesh, which simply means "a breathing creature." Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines nephesh as "the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath ... The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the 'body' and 'soul' which are really Greek and Latin in origin"

so we now undrrstand what soul is. The term immortal soul does not appear in the bible. What does the bible say about death and immortality?

Paul told the members of the congregation in Rome to "seek" immortality (Romans 2:5-7). He taught Christians at Corinth that they must be changed and "put on" immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-55). Paul proclaimed that only God and His Son possess immortality (1 Timothy 6:12-16) and that eternal life is a "gift" from God (Romans 6:23).
who possesses immortality...GOD!

The most powerful words come from Jesus Himself: "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
Raise him up on the last day. Does he say raise the body up? No!! He will raise HIM up. Is the body the real you? The poster has admitted the body is not the real you. But who does Jesus say he will raise on the last day? Him, the person, the being. Not just the body. Yes, the body is raised but that is only part of it.

Yet the Bible plainly teaches that the dead lie in the grave and know nothing, think no thoughts, have no emotions, possess no consciousness. Does this mean death, the cessation of life, is final, the end of everything? NO!!

Ecc 9:
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:
10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
psalms 164:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish

Friends, these verses are clear..the dead know nothing. The soul is not immortal. God will resurrect us on the last day. At the time we will be giving immortality. That is our blessed hope that Paul talked about. That is what Jesus preached. I pray that you will believe God`s word over the teachings of man.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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spm62, good points, especially about the mortality of the soul.

No one, I repeat, no one, is immortal, except for God. We will be given immortality after the resurrection. Therefore how can one be "alive" while "dead"?
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:58 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
None of the verses you gave say that the soul is conscious in heaven. I know these are not your own private interpretions. This is what you have been taught. That is my point. Notice you said INTERPRETATIONS. The scriptures you have do not say anything about the SOUL going to heaven iimmediatelym after death. That is the INTERPRETATION from people. The bible says, the soul who sins shall die. Was the soul of the rich man in the parable dead?
Why all the fuss over a resurrection if you are happy in heaven? Why is it the blessed hope? Can we see our loved ones being tortured?
I Have shown you Luke 16:19-36 which for some reason many people just can't accept as literal. But it is literal and it is not a parable. But just for the sake of argument, even if it were a parable, parables always taught truth. A parable simply presented a truth in a way which left those who heard it, such as the parisees, confused about what the parable actually meant. There is nothing confusing about what is being presented in Luke 16. It states in a clear, matter of fact way, that Abraham is present and conscious; it states that Lazarus is communicating with the rich man. And that Lazarus is in Paradise, and on the other side of the great gulf fixed, is the rich man in Torments.

I then presented Eph 4:8-10 which shows that at the same time that his body was in the grave, Christ had also gone down into Paradise and had led the saints out of that place and into Heaven.

And then I showed 2 Cor. 12:4 which shows plainly, that Paradise is now in the Third Heaven. The saints which were conscious in Paradise in Hades, are just as conscious in Paradise that is now in Heaven.

This is straight from the scriptures, there is nothing left to private interpretation. There are only those who reject what is right in front of their eyes because they arrogantly persist in rejecting the fact that there is eternal punishment for the unsaved, and there are those who simply cannot or will not comprehend the resurrection. And that the soul, which is the real you, is separate from the body. The soul is what animates the body. When the soul departs the body, that is physical death.

You say, the Bible says that the soul who sins shall die. Yes! But you do not understand that death means separation, not cessation of existance of the soul. And yes. Since the soul is the real you, of course it says 'the soul WHO sins.'

You address the matter of, as you put it, 'interpretation from people.'

Everyone must learn from someone and from someplace. Christ established, 'and I'm not talking about the true church of which every believer is a part', I am talking about the local Church where we are supposed to gather for edification and for worship. Christ established a system by which the word of God is to be taught. It involves the local church and it involves the pastor/teacher.

Eph. 4:12 says, 'for the purpose of equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.


And who is Eph. 4:12 referring to? It is referring to the pastor/teacher as mentioned in Eph 4:11. ' And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.

It is God's established plan and purpose for the believer to put himself under the teaching of a pastor/teacher for the purpose of learning the word of God. The spiritual gift is given by the Holy Spirit to certain male members of the human race. This spiritual gift allows the man with this gift to be able to go into the word of God and to dig out what is in there and to accurately understand what is there. He is then to feed his flock of believers with the word of God.

So if you reject the idea of listening to what is to be learned in a church, you are rejecting God's established procedure for for the Christian way of life.

The fact that most church's fail in their intended function does not invalidate the principle. God always insures that in every generation, there will be pastors who fulfill their function to edify the saints.

If you try to learn the Bible on your own, you can get some benefit, but you will never grow into spiritual maturity.

You ask, why all the fuss over resurrection? Hey! Take it up with God. It's His idea.
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:29 PM
 
2,949 posts, read 5,171,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you try to learn the Bible on your own, you can get some benefit, but you will never grow into spiritual maturity.
and if you learn from flawed teaching you will not grow either.

Quote:
You ask, why all the fuss over resurrection? Hey! Take it up with God. It's His idea.
That says it all. The resurrection has a purpose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
.
This is straight from the scriptures, there is nothing left to private interpretation. There are only those who reject what is right in front of their eyes because they arrogantly persist in rejecting the fact that there is eternal punishment for the unsaved, and there are those who simply cannot or will not comprehend the resurrection.
You have not posted one single scripture that is not open to your interpretation. How can you not see that. However, I have show you plain scripture after plain scripture but you just don`t believe it. So when the bible says the soul dies, you INTERPRET it as something else.
When the bible says Jesus actually dies, you INTERPRET it to mean just his body died.
When the bible says the dead know nothing, you INTERPRET it to mean something else.
Over and over you INTERPRET evey scripture to mean something else other than what is actually says in black and white.
For you to stand there and say what you believe and the scriptures you have posted are not open to your interpretation is ,well, simply amazing! That is all you have done. Refuse to believe what it says and interpret it to mean something else!

The fact is the bible says the dead know nothing. Their thoughts perish. The dead have no knowledge. It is appointed unto man once to die.Those are not my words. That is what the bible says. I`m not trying to make you believe that. I`m just presenting plain scripture to those who trust the bible. I know when the bible says die, you don`t really think it means die. When it says the dead know nothing, you don`t really think it means they know nothing. When it say their thoughts perish, it doesn`t really mean perish. When the bible says God sent his son to DIE, you don`t think it really means he died. The reason is because you choose to believe what your teachers tell you. The only way for them to teach immortality of the soul is for them to teach you that the verses I quoted above don`t really mean what they say, they mean something else. So instead of believing what the scriptures are saying, you choose to believe what others teach.
Show me a scripture where Jesus says the soul has immortality. So far all you have posted is scripture that you spin and say it means this or it means that but it really doesn`t mean what it is actually saying.
I have posted scripture after scripture and say read it for yourself and trust what it actually says. No spinning, no reading between the lines, no alternate meanings. Just read it and accept what it plainly says. You are unable to do that.
I`m posting for those who want to read and trust what they are actually reading in black and white, not man`s twisting the scripture to get it to fit their theology. Let the bible form your theology. Don`t let your theology form the bible.

Last edited by spm62; 09-03-2009 at 07:41 PM..
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