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Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgement is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Here Jesus tells those who are listening how the dead will come forth from their graves
This obviously is a huge corner stone to support the “soul sleep” theory and who will argue with Jesus?
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here is another scripture that backs up the soul sleep concept. Not only does it support John 5: 28-30 it says the same thing but words it in such a way people better understand.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven- the Son of Man.
With this scripture we realize the soul sleep theory is more then just a theory it is fact. It is unfortunate this scripture does run into conflict with another passage. I would like to go ahead and look at it together.
To the contrary. At the time that Jesus said that, it was true. Until Jesus was resurrected, risen, and seated at the right hand of God the Father, no member of the human race was allowed access to Heaven. That's why everyone prior to the resurrection, accension, and session of Christ, went into hades. Paradise for the believer and torments for the unbeliever. Once the resurrected humanity of Jesus Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, Heaven was open to believing mankind. And actually, at the moment of Christ's death on the Cross, the veil in the temple was torn by God Himself from top to bottom signifying that the partition that separated man from God was taken away. In other words, Heaven was now accessable to believers.
And the verses that talk about sleeping in the dust of the earth are simply talking about the body. Not the soul. The term 'sleep' is used because the body awakens in resurrection. It has nothing to do with the soul.
Quote:
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Now for some this may seem like an ah hah moment but let me reassure you it is not. Jesus was quite obviously a unique individual which is a gross under statement but he was Jesus. He could do anything and if he swelled up with compassion for this criminal on the cross then yes he can take him up once Jesus died then the criminal. To me this is an exception to the rule because let’s face it, Jesus can decide to take you with him if he so desires. This brings me to another “challenge verse”.
Luke 16: 19-31
This rather large piece of scripture that stands on the “challenge side” is surprisingly simple enough to understand. At the time Jesus is teaching those around him and in Luke 16 you find the parable of the shred manager. Unfortunately those who do not support the “soul sleep” concept will find neither does this scripture. WHY!? you scream! Because Jesus is telling a story and not fact(s).
My assessment . . . you die – and then the next thing you are aware of is that you wake up to be judged. It isn’t as though you are conscious during ’soul sleep’.
Luke 16:31 is not a story. Jesus said that Abraham was in hades, in the paradise side. Since Jesus doesn't lie, Abraham was in hades, in the paradise side. Jesus wouldn't say that Abraham was there if he wasn't just to tell a story. And hades is the selfsame Sheol of the Old Testament. And that very same Hades is thrown into the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14.
I Have shown you Luke 16:19-36 which for some reason many people just can't accept as literal. But it is literal and it is not a parable. But just for the sake of argument, even if it were a parable, parables always taught truth. A parable simply presented a truth in a way which left those who heard it, such as the parisees, confused about what the parable actually meant. There is nothing confusing about what is being presented in Luke 16. It states in a clear, matter of fact way, that Abraham is present and conscious; it states that Lazarus is communicating with the rich man. And that Lazarus is in Paradise, and on the other side of the great gulf fixed, is the rich man in Torments.
I then presented Eph 4:8-10 which shows that at the same time that his body was in the grave, Christ had also gone down into Paradise and had led the saints out of that place and into Heaven.
And then I showed 2 Cor. 12:4 which shows plainly, that Paradise is now in the Third Heaven. The saints which were conscious in Paradise in Hades, are just as conscious in Paradise that is now in Heaven.
This is straight from the scriptures, there is nothing left to private interpretation. There are only those who reject what is right in front of their eyes because they arrogantly persist in rejecting the fact that there is eternal punishment for the unsaved, and there are those who simply cannot or will not comprehend the resurrection. And that the soul, which is the real you, is separate from the body. The soul is what animates the body. When the soul departs the body, that is physical death.
You say, the Bible says that the soul who sins shall die. Yes! But you do not understand that death means separation, not cessation of existance of the soul. And yes. Since the soul is the real you, of course it says 'the soul WHO sins.'
You address the matter of, as you put it, 'interpretation from people.'
Everyone must learn from someone and from someplace. Christ established, 'and I'm not talking about the true church of which every believer is a part', I am talking about the local Church where we are supposed to gather for edification and for worship. Christ established a system by which the word of God is to be taught. It involves the local church and it involves the pastor/teacher.
Eph. 4:12 says, 'for the purpose of equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ.
And who is Eph. 4:12 referring to? It is referring to the pastor/teacher as mentioned in Eph 4:11. ' And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.
It is God's established plan and purpose for the believer to put himself under the teaching of a pastor/teacher for the purpose of learning the word of God. The spiritual gift is given by the Holy Spirit to certain male members of the human race. This spiritual gift allows the man with this gift to be able to go into the word of God and to dig out what is in there and to accurately understand what is there. He is then to feed his flock of believers with the word of God.
So if you reject the idea of listening to what is to be learned in a church, you are rejecting God's established procedure for for the Christian way of life.
The fact that most church's fail in their intended function does not invalidate the principle. God always insures that in every generation, there will be pastors who fulfill their function to edify the saints.
If you try to learn the Bible on your own, you can get some benefit, but you will never grow into spiritual maturity.
You ask, why all the fuss over resurrection? Hey! Take it up with God. It's His idea.
Everything you wrote is the truth. The Word of God stands the test of time.
Yes. And additionally, in Matthew 10:28, Jesus makes it emphatically clear that the soul survives the death of the body.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''
In so saying this, Jesus make it clear that physical death refers only to the death of the body. The soul simply departs the body to go into the presence of the Lord for the believer, or to go into hades where the soul of the unbeliever awaits transference to the permanent and eternal lake of fire.
Fourteen years prior to 2 Corinthians 5:8-9 where Paul states that he prefers to be absent from the body and at home with (face to face with) the Lord, he had been taken up into Heaven as recorded in 2 Corinthians 12:1-6. Paul didn't know if he had been taken up in the body or out of the body, but he saw and heard things in Heaven of which he was not permitted to speak. And he was given a thorn in his side, an angel to buffet him in order to make sure that what he saw didn't cause him to exalt himself. 2 Cor. 12:7.
There is a possibility that that event occurred when Paul was stoned during his missionary journey as recorded in Acts 14:19. He may have actually died momentarily as a result of the stoning and gone into the presence of the Lord as indicated in 2 Corinthians 12:1. Or they may have been two separate events.
In 2 Peter 1:13 Peter has this to say...
2 Peter 1:13 ''And I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, (Peter is saying that the real person-the soul, inhabits an earthly dwelling-the body), to stir you up by way of reminder, 14) Knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also the Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.''
These are the words of a man who is talking about departing from his body and going into the presence of God.
And as you indicated, in Revelation 6:9-11 and 20:4, the souls of the Tribulational martyrs are in Heaven. And as it shows in Rev. 20:4, those souls are about to be reunited with their bodies. ''...and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Resurrection always refers to the body, and never to the soul. The bodies of unbelievers will be resurrected at the second resurrection which is alluded to in Revelation 20:5-6, the souls of those unbelievers who are in Torments in Hades will rejoin their bodies and these resurrected unbelievers will stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne judgment where they are about to be ordered by Jesus Christ into the lake of fire.
Sad to say, there will always be those who ignore the clear teaching of Scripture and persist in the unscriptural belief of soul sleep.
God bless you for speaking the truth. Those who desire to know the truth will listen to His word.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Solomon is contrasting life with death not life with afterlife. After you die, you can't change what you have done. Resurrection to a new life after death was a vague concept for OT believers. When Jesus rose from the dead, it was made clear.
I believe that the ones who truly know Jesus in this lifetime, the "firstfruits," go to be with the Lord right away, but the ones who are not firstfruits, will be dead until the resurrection. John 11:26 says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
1 Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn:
- Christ,
- the firstfruits;
- then, when he comes, those who belong to him (All belong to him. It doesn't say those who believe in him.)
I believe true followers of Christ never die (The soul or spirit, however you want to look at it. Obviously the body dies), and those who reject Christ do die, but are raised later.
"The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
This might be why some people see it two different ways and some people can see both sides of it, because there are two outcomes depending on who we are talking about.
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 03-29-2010 at 10:15 AM..
Reason: spelling
I believe that the ones who truly know Jesus in this lifetime, the "firstfruits," go to be with the Lord right away, but the ones who are not firstfruits, will be dead until the resurrection. John 11:26 says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
1 Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn:
- Christ,
- the firstfruits;
- then, when he comes, those who belong to him (All belong to him. It doesn't say those who believe in him.)
I believe true followers of Christ never die (The soul or spirit, however you want to look at it. Obviously the body dies), and those who reject Christ do die, but are raised later.
"The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23)
This might be why some people see it two different ways and some people can see both sides of it, because there are two outcomes depending on who we are talking about.
I think the verse lifesigns64 posted agrees with my view, also.
John 5: 28-30 (NIV)
Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
It says, "all who are in their graves." It wouldn't need to say that if all were in their graves. It would just say "all" (assuming this is after the rapture).
So, the ones who have faith in Jesus receive the gift of eternal life, and never die. The ones who did not have faith in Jesus have to pay the wages of their sin, and die. Then, after they have paid the wages of their sin and die, they later hear his voice in the resurrection of the dead, and are judged by their deeds.
Then it starts to get more controversial about what happens next. As one who believes in the restitution of all things, I believe after they are judged justly, God's creation plan will be victorious when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and He becomes all in all.
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 03-29-2010 at 12:21 PM..
In reading the context of 1 Corinthians 15 again, I realized that "Christ the firstfruits" is talking about Christ. The comma separating "Christ, the firstfruits," has had me thinking it was as stated in my first post. Verse 20 says, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept," so I guess it should be:
- Christ the firstfruits
- Those who belong to him
Either way, I still believe that the "free gift of eternal life" means some will be with the Lord upon death, and "the wages of sin" mean that some will die, but be resurrected later.
After the 9 hours, Jesus died, and was in the grave for 3 days. He was not in heaven, nor in hell preaching. He was dead, because Jesus died for our sins. Like 1 Cor 15 says, if Jesus wasn't actually dead, but was only "alive" in another location, then He didn't actually die for our sins. If there was no resurrection of the dead, then what hope is there? No, Jesus died, was dead, and then was resurrected after 3 days (not immediately to go preach elsewhere). That is our hope, that we will be resurrected. Jesus is the proof that it will happen.
Just my current understanding of scripture.
Peace.
You don't get it. You seriously don't get it. I took the liberty of reading some of your other comments and I just have to call you out on your ignorant view. From what I read from you, you seem to think a person who is dead is some one who can't be alive spiritually. No, a person who is dead if there body is no longer functioning. They can very well be alive spiritually in another world. They're just dead in the physical world. That's rather easy to understand. You don't need to be totally gone from existence and consciousness to be totally dead. Being physically dead, no longer walking about the world of the living is enough to make some one dead to us still living physically. When Jesus died, regardless of him being in a spirit form or not, still DIED PHYSICALLY for the sake of mankind. He was removed from the world. Him being in a spirit form afterwards does not jeopardize his sacrifice from the world of the living. He did go to another place and that place is Hades where the other spirits remained. He took up some saints with him to Heaven and he merged with his physical body and gave himself a glorified body. That's how it will be at the resurrection. The believers and unbelievers who are dead will have their bodies and spirits merged back together. The believers will be granted with glorified bodies and have a chance to live again for eternity. The resurrection is simply bringing body and spirit back together, not some one being in some sort of soul sleep and being awaken after so many years of being in an unconscious state. You're looking at this all wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Back to the OP, if when we are dead, we are actually alive in another location, then we are not really dead. Our body can't be dead while the person is still alive.
That's only if you're talking physical here. Of course a person's body can't be dead if they're physically alive. They would need to be not be physically alive for their body to be dead. But in the spiritual sense, that's not the case when it comes to a person's body. A spiritual body is not the physical body and does not need the physical body to live on. While the physical body is temporary, the spiritual body is eternal and if you can easily understand that, then why can't a person's body be dead while they're still existing in another form? They would be able to.
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Correction
