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Old 09-03-2009, 12:21 AM
 
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The concept of soul sleep is based on a misunderstanding of certain Biblical passages and because certain other passages that show that the soul and spirit of the believer go into the presence of God in a state of consciousness, are somehow overlooked or dismissed from consideration.

Notice how in Matthew 27:52, it is the body that is resurrected from physical death. The soul is not mentioned as either being resurrected or awakened from sleep. It is the bodies of the saints which had fallen asleep, not their souls. 'and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;.'

Luke 16:19-31 speaks of Lazarus and the rich man, being in Hades in a conscious state. Many people think this passage is a parable, but it is not. But even if it were a parable, a parable always tells of something which is true. If this were a parable, and what it says is not speaking of something which is true, then Jesus was lying. But it is not a parable for reasons I have described in another post. And it can be researched easily enough on the internet.

Paradise was one of the compartments of Hades where Old Testament saints went after death. Paradise is now located in the third Heaven.

Notice what it says in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third Heaven. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Paradise is identified as being in the third Heaven. The Throne room of God.

Now notice what it says in Ephesians 4:8-10. 'Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9) (Now this expression, "He ascended." what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10) He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) When Jesus Christ ascended into the third Heaven, He took with Him the saints who had been in Paradise under the earth, and who are now in the presence of God in the third Heaven, where Paradise is now located.

In Revelation 4:1, we see that John was taken up into the third Heaven in the spirit, and shown things which were to take place.

Look at 2 Corinthians 5:8. 'We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Paul is saying that the soul separates from the body and goes into the presence of the Lord. There is no soul sleep inplyed here.

Now look at 2 Corinthians 5:1 and following. 'For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house (the body) is torn down (physical death), we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. ( When we separate from our bodies at the point of physical death we immediately are transfered to the third Heaven and occupy (a building from God). 2) For indeed in this house (our body) we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; 3) inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. ( there is some sort of intermediate body that we occupy in Heaven while awaiting the resurrection of our bodies.)

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7. Verse 5) '...For man goes to his eternal home...'
Verse 7) 'then the dust will return to the earth as it was (the death of the body), and the spirit will return to God who gave it. ( you go to be with the Lord. There is no soul sleep implyed here.)

In Philippians 1:21-24, Paul expesses a desire to be absent from the body and face to face with the Lord. 'For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. ( If the soul slept, then to die would not be gain. There would be no purpose for Paul desiring to enter into a soul sleep when he has just expressed the need to stay for the benefit of the saints.) But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But if I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ (the death of the body; but the soul and spirit enterng into the presence of the Lord) for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

'Sleep' is a term used only for the body, never for the soul or spirit. It is used only for believers expressing God's view of the death of a believer.

I am providing a link that covers some things that I haven't:

Soul Sleep

God has much better plans for the believer after death than the false view of soul sleep would entail.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:14 AM
 
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When you are dead, you are dead, not alive in another location. That's why there is a resurrection.

The bible likens death to sleep because there is no consciousness when you are dead, just like when you are sleeping. Time passes but you have no recollection of it.

This video is interesting:


YouTube - Death - The Truth
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:47 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,965,346 times
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Question:

Did Jesus die?
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Small Town USA
1,392 posts, read 1,430,166 times
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Wow . . why is it that I can see both sides . . . when I was little, I believed we died and went straight to the Lord . . . for many years . . . I had not relationship with God . . and was agnostic . . . not believing if there was or wasn't . . .figured I was a good person . . . blah, blah blah.

The Baptist Church I had been going to in the last few years teaches upon death, our souls are present with the Lord . . . but studying my bible on my own . . .I have been convicted more or less on soul sleep for awhile . . . body and soul sleeps in the grave, those "saved" will be resurrected at the first resurrection.

Now, after researching this, again this morning, I can see again the other side.

Why can't I find something clear to stand on so I can voice my "own" beliefs as my truth . . . SEEMS LIKE I can take many people's truth and see the truth . . . with the exceptions of some doctrines (Catholicism) . . .

Ugh!!!!!!
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:37 AM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,249,062 times
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You mention the soul being seperate from the body, but give no scripture to support that claim. Once again you`re making the mistake that a lot of people make...trying to make the bible fit YOUR doctrine instead of letting your doctrine fit the bible. What is your soul? Look to the bible for your answer. Don`t look for your chuchology to define it. In Genesis,the bible says...God breathed into man`s body the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul. Man`s soul wasn`t living before that. It doesn`t say he put into man a living soul. Living soul is what man BECAME. He became a living soul when God`s breath of life united with his man`s body. The soul is man`s being. It is who you are. At death then, the oppsite must be true. We know the spirit or breath of life goes back to God from whence it came.. The body goes back to the dust where it came. They will not be reunited until the resurrection. When they are reunited then man BECOMES a living soul once again. If man`s soul was already alive then why does he BECOME a living soul after the breath of life unites with his body? What and where was the soul before then?
What would be the need for a resurrection if you are happy, walking,talking,able to feel,rejoicing,singing, praising God in paradise. Why the need to come back down,get a body ,then go back up to heaven again. In the parable of the rich man, he is talking to Abraham. He is able to feel pain and suffering. He is able to think. He is able to reason. The bible says the dead know nothing. But according to you, the dead know a lot, if you believe the parable of the rich man is no parable. The rich man seemed to know a lot of things. Also if you believe the rich man is no parable then you have to believe we will be able to see our loved ones in hell suffering and screaming out in agony while we are having a grand ole time in paradise. This is totally contradictary to scripture,imo.
The bible refers to death being like sleep over and over. So what kind of state are you in when you sleep? You are in an unconscious state. To understand the bible you have to look at the whole of scripture. You have to make it all harmonize. You cannot just take a verse here and there,ignore all the others, and then form a doctrine. IMO, that is what the church does all the time.
You can call it soul sleep or whatever you want but I don`t refer to it as soul sleep. I just refer to death like the bible does,like Jesus did. The bible says death is like sleep. It doesn`t mean because you look like you are asleep. A skeleton lying in a grave doesn`t look like a person sleeping. It is like sleep because you are in an unconscious state and will arise again one day. That is why Jesus and the apostles put some much emphasis on the resurrection. That is the blessed hope. Why all the fuss over a resurrection if you are happy in heaven? Why is it the blessed hope? Why is it the thing we all look forward to? Pray to God for understanding and open your mind to something other than what you`ve been taught. Let God lead you and be willing to let go of your churchology.

Last edited by spm62; 09-03-2009 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Spm62 is right. The "soul" in the Bible means the physical body we have now. When we die we are unconscious, our thoughts perished, until we are brought back to life in the resurrection.



Eccl.9:


5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Pray to God for understanding and open your mind to something other than what you`ve been taught. Let God lead you and be willing to let go of your churchology.
This post would have been better to just have typed these words, and left all the rest of what "you" believe out of it. Otherwise you do the same as the churches do, by inserting your beliefs.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
Spm62 is right. The "soul" in the Bible means the physical body we have now. When we die we are unconscious, our thoughts perished, until we are brought back to life in the resurrection.



Eccl.9:


5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
And yet in Revelation we see the souls of the ones beheaded crying out to God for justice. Hmmm. Rev 5:9-11. But they are "resting" for a while longer. Yet they still cry out. So they ARE aware!
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:25 AM
 
12,878 posts, read 6,948,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Question:

Did Jesus die?
Jesus died twice on the cross.
1) He died spiritually in being judged for our sins. Christ was on the cross for nine hours. The judgment of our sins didn't begin until noon when he had already been on the cross for 6 hours. Around noon, God caused a deep supernatural darkness to fall so that people could not see the excruciating
pain and humiliation that Christ was undergoing while our sins were being poured out on him and judged. For the next three hours, our Lord endured the agony of every single sin that was ever commited in human history, past, present, and future. The penalty for sin was spiritual death (separation from God in time), and so Christ, in dying a substitutionary death for us, had to die spiritually, which again, means separation from God. It does not mean cessation of existence. While Christ was paying for our sins, God the Father had to turn His back on Christ. This was absolutely agonizing for Christ to have to endure. But endure it he did. And when the last sin was paid for by Christ, he called out in a loud voice, "TETELESTI." It is finished. Tetelesti (perfect tense of TELEO)-"It is finished in the past, with the result that it keeps on being finished forever!" The debt of our sins had been paid for in full with the result that our sins are no longer an issue in salvation. But rather, the issue is, 'What think you of Christ'.

Jesus Christ was physically alive while at the same time enduring spiritual death. (Separation).

2)After he had paid the penalty for our sins, Jesus Christ then died physically. He dismissed his spirit and brought his own life to an end. The crucification did not kill him. His work was done and he died, so that he could go to the next step. His spirit went into the presence of the Father, his body went into the tomb, and his soul went down into Paradise. Three days later, his body,soul, and spirit reunited, and his body was resurrected. As a result, our bodies will be resurrected.

Resurrection always refers to the body. Never to the soul.

There are 7 clasifications of deaths:

1) Spiritual death is no relationship with God in time. We are born physically alive but spiritually dead. Gen. 2:17; Rom. 5:12;6:23; 1 Cor. 15:22; Eph. 2:1,5

2) Physical death is the separation of the human soul (and for the believer, the human spirit also) from the body. Matt. 8:22; Rom. 8:38,39; 2 Cor. 5:1-8

3) Second death is the perpetuation of spiritual death into eternity of eternal separation from God. This is the final judgment of the unbelievers iin the human race and fallen angels. They are thrown into the Lak of Fire forever.
Matt. 25:41; Heb. 9:27; Rev. 20:12-15.

4) Positional death is part of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. All believers are identifed with Christ in His death on the Cross and with His rejection of human good and evil. Rom. 6:3,4; Col. 2:12; 3:3.

5) Operational death is not producing any divine good on the part of a back sliding believer who is under the influence of evil. James 2:26; 1 Tim. 5:6;
Eph. 5:14; Rev. 3:1

6) Temporal death is being in a state of carnality through personal sin.
Rom. 8:6,13; Eph. 5:14; 1Tim. 5:6; James 1:15; Luke 15:24.

7) Sexual death. The inability to copulate. No more Wee whacky woo hoo. Rom. 4:17-21; Heb. 11:11,12.

It is necessary to distinquish between the kinds of death the Bible is talking about and what each particular kind of death means.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:33 AM
 
12,878 posts, read 6,948,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
You mention the soul being seperate from the body, but give no scripture to support that claim. Once again you`re making the mistake that a lot of people make...trying to make the bible fit YOUR doctrine instead of letting your doctrine fit the bible. What is your soul? Look to the bible for your answer. Don`t look for your chuchology to define it. In Genesis,the bible says...God breathed into man`s body the breath of life and man BECAME a living soul. Man`s soul wasn`t living before that. It doesn`t say he put into man a living soul. Living soul is what man BECAME. He became a living soul when God`s breath of life united with his man`s body. The soul is man`s being. It is who you are. At death then, the oppsite must be true. We know the spirit or breath of life goes back to God from whence it came.. The body goes back to the dust where it came. They will not be reunited until the resurrection. When they are reunited then man BECOMES a living soul once again. If man`s soul was already alive then why does he BECOME a living soul after the breath of life unites with his body? What and where was the soul before then?
What would be the need for a resurrection if you are happy, walking,talking,able to feel,rejoicing,singing, praising God in paradise. Why the need to come back down,get a body ,then go back up to heaven again. In the parable of the rich man, he is talking to Abraham. He is able to feel pain and suffering. He is able to think. He is able to reason. The bible says the dead know nothing. But according to you, the dead know a lot, if you believe the parable of the rich man is no parable. The rich man seemed to know a lot of things. Also if you believe the rich man is no parable then you have to believe we will be able to see our loved ones in hell suffering and screaming out in agony while we are having a grand ole time in paradise. This is totally contradictary to scripture,imo.
The bible refers to death being like sleep over and over. So what kind of state are you in when you sleep? You are in an unconscious state. To understand the bible you have to look at the whole of scripture. You have to make it all harmonize. You cannot just take a verse here and there,ignore all the others, and then form a doctrine. IMO, that is what the church does all the time.
You can call it soul sleep or whatever you want but I don`t refer to it as soul sleep. I just refer to death like the bible does,like Jesus did. The bible says death is like sleep. It doesn`t mean because you look like you are asleep. A skeleton lying in a grave doesn`t look like a person sleeping. It is like sleep because you are in an unconscious state and will arise again one day. That is why Jesus and the apostles put some much emphasis on the resurrection. That is the blessed hope. Why all the fuss over a resurrection if you are happy in heaven? Why is it the blessed hope? Why is it the thing we all look forward to? Pray to God for understanding and open your mind to something other than what you`ve been taught. Let God lead you and be willing to let go of your churchology.
Not only did I give some verses, I bolded them as well.

These are not my own private interpretations, this is sound, correct Biblical teaching as taught by men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, and who was a professor of Systemic Theology; and Robert B. Thieme, Jr. who was pastor of Berachah Church in Houston Texas for over 50 years.
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