The One Scripture that Proves Eternal Torment Beyond Any Shadow of Doubt (lordship, Holy Ghost)

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Okay, its our choice to be saved ? So Christ is not our savior in that he pulls us out of death, but only in the sense he made the way open if we are willing to To choose to go that way, which is basically believing in him. Then there are the things you can and cant do if you REALLY believe in him. Because just thinking you believe in him is not enough because even some people who think they believe in him don't really believe but are wicked servants. Then ... Etc ...

You know when i look at these ways of theological reasoning which always tend to extend along the same lines, i get dizzy ...

The whole way of thinking can be summed up in a few words ...

"Jesus is the savior of the world - BUT..." ... ... ...

Its the gospel of "Jesus is the savior of the world - BUT..."

The but is where all the fallacy lies ... You can pick em' as you will ... Any idea or word you can put in the place of the word BUT in the sentence is false gospel.

BUT you have to choose him ...

But you have to observe the sabbath ...

But you have to be a part of the catholic Church ...

But you have to go to church on Sundays ...

But you cant spit, dance, cuss, smoke or drink ... Etc.

But ...

There is no but where the fact that Jesus is the savior of the world is concerned. There is only the fact that he is the savior of the world ... BUT NOTHING.

You left out a few thousand but's ... otherwise great post!

but you have to believe in hell...
but you have to say the sinner's prayer
but you have to be baptized the right way
but you have to confess each of your sins accurately
but you have to ask for forgiveness
but you have to be on your knees while doing all these things!

Could go on all day!

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Reconcilation means that Christ paid the penalty for all, and removed the barrier that had stood between man and God. But now, each individual person has to make a free will decision to believe in Christ. He has to decide to step over the line where the barrier had once been.

Most christians believe in Universal Reconciliation but it is so hard to make the leap of faith to Universal Salvation/redemption... why is that?

I think I've said this a million times, but one more can't hurt, eh?

Belief in the Power of Christ's Blood does not make it Powerful. Non-belief in the Power of Christ's Blood does not make it any less Powerful. Why do you assume that humans can influence the POWER of CHRIST'S BLOOD... by lack of faith, lack of belief, or free will?

It is the Power of Christ's Blood that saves... not belief or faith!

The issue is, ' By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The decision involves FAITH PLUS NOTHING.

Ok... but isn't a decision something additional to faith?

It is human arrogance to try to add anything to faith. Anything added to faith cancels out the faith and you are not saved. Why? Because works can have nothing to do with salvation.

You just stated that you have to make a decision to have faith and believe on the faith to be saved... or did I get that confused? Haven't you, in your own arrogance just stated that it takes belief+decision+faith to be saved? Not only that but you stated that it is "in Christ alone?" yet, in your human arrogance you state that it is free will of the person. So it is really Christ+human=saved.

We are all spiritually dead at the moment we make the decision to believe. A spiritually dead person can do nothing to help himself. He can do nothing to save himself any more than a physically dead person can do anything. It is all up to God.

Ok so now it is helpless man needs God's help. So Christ+Human+God=saved?

Therefore faith in Christ is what saves. God requires a volitional decision on our part.

so you just said Christ+Human belief+Human decision+Human faith+God equals salvation! yet you stated that anything added to faith nullifies being saved?

John 6:28-29 says, 'Then they asked Him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

"What must we do to do the works God requires?" Belief produces works not salvation!

And even the faith itself requires that God the Holy Spirit under the ministry of efficacious grace, take the faith and carry it to the point of salvation.

Ok so now we have: Christ+Human belief+Human decision+Human faith+God's Holy Spirit+ God's grace+ God's will equals salvation?

The merit is not in faith, but rather the merit is in the object of faith. Once you have faith in Christ, then God takes that faith and applies it to salvation. He makes the faith efficacious and causes it to have the intended effect, which is salvation for the one exercising the faith.

Merit according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2009. means spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits.. Faith is defined as something that is believed especially with strong conviction...

so... "the spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts to ensure future benefits"(merit) is not in the "Power of the Blood that is believed especially with strong conviction" (faith) but rather "the spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts to ensure future benefits" (merit) is in the "Power of the Blood that is believed especially with strong conviction?" (faith)
Next. you propose that God makes the faith "have the power to produce a desired effect" (efficacious) which is salvation...So is it the power of the faith or the power of the blood? I'm dizzy

[Verna Perry]

Our Covenant Relationship With God; Part II: Blessings Contengent Upon Faithfulness...
...Our Key to God's Blessings.

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,
Let's discuss blessings contengent upon faithfulness.

God's people, in this end-time hour, must come into an experience in which they know "...man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4).
We must no longer live according to the limitations of our minds but our lives must be directed by the very words which proceed from the mouth of God. We must develope such spiritual sensitivity that we listen for God's voice and are ready to faithfully obey.
The key to our breakthrough and God's promised blessing in our lives is our FAITHFULNESS as we walk in a covenant relationship with Him, where we live in obedience and line up our lives with His Word.
There are many Christians who think they can live a half-hearted Christian life, follow after the carnal lusts of their flesh and still claim God's promises of blessing.
The truth is you will be unable to take hold of God's promise in faith unless you live in strong covenant relationship with Christ. Jesus said, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you" (John 15:7). Only when you abide in Christ and His Word remains in you, changing and renewing your mind, will you be able to ask whatever you will and it will be done! Only when you live in continual fellowship with Christ, through your faithfulness to Him, will you be able to receive the fulfillment of His blessings.

PROSPERITY, BLESSING and ABUNDANCE were part of God's covenant with Israel. However, the fulfillment of these promises was based upon one thing...keeping their covenant with God through their faithfulness and obedience to all His commandments...Moses told the children of Israel there would be no poor among them because God's blessings would be upon them if they would listen to God and faithfully obey the commandments God gave them...

Deuteronomy 15:4-5...Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the Lord shall greatly bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it: (5) Only IF thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.

My first study:

Matthew 25:14-30 "The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins"
"The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of ten bridesmaids who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. The five who were foolish didn't take enough olive oil for their lamps, but the other five were wise enough to take along extra oil. When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
"At midnight they were roused by the shout, 'Look, the bridegroom is coming! Come out and meet him!'
"All the bridesmaids got up and prepared their lamps. Then the five foolish ones asked the others, 'Please give us some of your oil because our lamps are going out.'
'But the others replied, 'We don't have enough for all of you. Go to the shop and buy some for yourselves.'
"But while they were gone to buy oil, the bridegroom came. Then those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was locked. Later, when the other five bridesmaids returned, they stood outside, calling, 'Lord! Lord! Open the door for us!'
"But he called back, 'Believe me, I don't know you!'
"So you, to, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or the hour of my return.

In Christ's love,
Verna.

[Phazelwood]

Verna is actually right, but the teachings often carnally confuse our despair without Christ as the possibility that God gives up on us at some point. It also often confuses religious teachings with spiritual awareness that goes beyond what words can describe.

Many Christians think the tenants of "Christianity" is the final authority, when it is God, it is not even the bible, because the bible is Gods word, but there is not one human that interprets it to perfect alignment with God.

If you believe God ever gives up, that He has created a place where no hope will exist for all eternity, then your serving an illusion.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Reconcilation means that Christ paid the penalty for all, and removed the barrier that had stood between man and God. But now, each individual person has to make a free will decision to believe in Christ. He has to decide to step over the line where the barrier had once been.

The issue is, ' By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The decision involves FAITH PLUS NOTHING. It is human arrogance to try to add anything to faith. Anything added to faith cancels out the faith and you are not saved. Why? Because works can have nothing to do with salvation. We are all spiritually dead at the moment we make the decision to believe. A spiritually dead person can do nothing to help himself. He can do nothing to save himself any more than a physically dead person can do anything. It is all up to God. Therefore faith in Christ is what saves. God requires a volitional decision on our part. John 6:28-29 says, 'Then they asked Him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent." And even the faith itself requires that God the Holy Spirit under the ministry of efficacious grace, take the faith and carry it to the point of salvation. The merit is not in faith, but rather the merit is in the object of faith. Once you have faith in Christ, then God takes that faith and applies it to salvation. He makes the faith efficacious and causes it to have the intended effect, which is salvation for the one exercising the faith.

Mike .. We have already mentioned the many various verses that tell about the time when every person who ever lived will bow and worship before Christ to the Glory of the father. At that time God will be all in all. Everything God created, he created Through Christ and for Christ. All things in the heavens, and in the earth and under the earth. All things invisible and visible. All powers and principalities and rulers and authorities in high places. All these things will be reconciled to God through Christ.


Col 1:16-20
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.



How much clearer can Paul be about these things? The "ALL THINGS" throughout those verses, are literally all things in creation, the whole World/cosmos. All things WILL BE reconciled to God through Christ. Here we see that Christ and his body the church are the FIRSTBORN/FIRST FRUITS of those from among the dead. We are not the only ones to come from among the dead, all will be made alive in Christ even as all died in Adam. Though we are the first fruits with Christ from among the dead, that is only the beginning of the harvest. The rest of the world will be the last fruits in the fullness of times. The house of faith is an elect body. We don't Choose to believe and then have faith ... We are elected by the father dragged to the cross and given faith and understanding by the spirit so that we will believe. The choice could not be made to believe if you didn't already have faith to believe in the first place.This is what it means that God works in us bot to will and to do of his Good pleasure ... All the others who God has not Chooses to reveal himself to at this time will in the fullness of times be reconciled through Christ to God. Even if it need be by his fiery Judgments at last ...


What does reconcile mean?

apokatallassō
1) to reconcile completely
2) to reconcile back again
3) bring back a former state of harmony


This is the word that "Apocatastasis" derives from, which was the Greek word for Gospel of "universal reconciliation" in the first three centuries after Christ, it means to return to paradise or the restoration of the world to the state before the fall ... "Logos Katallage" - The Word of Reconciliation (2 Cor 5:19) ... All things will be restored to harmony with God. All things in creation bar none.

[Truthseeker777]

You know, I've been struggling recently with whether or not to share my beliefs with others, because to the carnal mind UR is so often misconstrued as justification for sin (which is the exact opposite of the truth). And the heinous doctrines of men do serve a purpose in pushing people (through fear and not love) to come to God. But I happened to open my Bible to this page just now, and I think I found my answer:

Mark 7:6-9
"You bunch of hypocrites! Isaiah the prophet described you very well when he said, 'These people speak very prettily about the Lord but they have no love for him at all. Their worship is a farce, for they claim that God commands the people to obey their petty rules.' How right Isaiah was!
For you ignore God's specific orders and substitute your own traditions.
You are simply rejecting God's laws and trampling them under your feet for the sake of tradition. "

God's specific orders- The commandments
Is there a commandment that says " thou shalt believe some people will be eternally tortured"?... Musta been sick that day in Sunday school. ...

[Cyber Munchkin]

But you cant spit, dance, cuss, smoke or drink ....

And go out with girls that do.....

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker777

You know, I've been struggling recently with whether or not to share my beliefs with others, because to the carnal mind UR is so often misconstrued as justification for sin (which is the exact opposite of the truth). And the heinous doctrines of men do serve a purpose in pushing people (through fear and not love) to come to God. But I happened to open my Bible to this page just now, and I think I found my answer:

Mark 7:6-9
"You bunch of hypocrites! Isaiah the prophet described you very well when he said, 'These people speak very prettily about the Lord but they have no love for him at all. Their worship is a farce, for they claim that God commands the people to obey their petty rules.' How right Isaiah was!
For you ignore God's specific orders and substitute your own traditions.
You are simply rejecting God's laws and trampling them under your feet for the sake of tradition. "

God's specific orders- The commandments
Is there a commandment that says " thou shalt believe some people will be eternally tortured"?... Musta been sick that day in Sunday school. ...

Not everyone who doesn't believe in UR believes in ET. I don't. I believe is the destruction of the soul. That is who you should fear, the One who has the power to do that. AS far as UR being a justification for sin? It is when you think about it. It means that no matter how you live your life, don't worry, be happy, because in the end you will still get into the kingdom.

This is why it is these people who defend the sinners, and their sin. It goes against everything taught in the Word. Shoot, read the topics about sin, and then read the UR responses to them. God's government is not working on a democratic liberal progressive agenda. You are either in, or you are out.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Not everyone who doesn't believe in UR believes in ET. I don't. I believe is the destruction of the soul. That is who you should fear, the One who has the power to do that. AS far as UR being a justification for sin? It is when you think about it. It means that no matter how you live your life, don't worry, be happy, because in the end you will still get into the kingdom.

This is why it is these people who defend the sinners, and their sin. It goes against everything taught in the Word. Shoot, read the topics about sin, and then read the UR responses to them. God's government is not working on a democratic liberal progressive agenda. You are either in, or you are out.

Actually no one who i know who believes UR believes it doesn't mattter how you live , infact they believe the exact opposite, that is coming out of the hearts of those who are saying that.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Acutually no one who i know who believes UR believes it doesn't mattter how you live , infact they believe the exact opposite, that is coming out of the hearts of those who are saying that.

lol, whatever. I see you prowling around defending sinners and their sin, who btw claim to believers, taking God's Holy Word and Law, perverting it to captivate the weak sinners, and justifying their sin, claiming Jesus already paid the price for it, past, present and future.

If this is not a license to sin, I don't know what is. You cannot have it both ways. Either repent and believe, whole heartedly, with the love that is in your heart that is being transformed, or don't, and face the Judge in your sins.