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Old 09-13-2009, 01:22 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,753,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
But the unbelievers are saying they won't go to church because it's full of hypocrits , does this rejection of the church mean the church is of the devil, because according to you if something is rejected it's of the devil.
Yes. The real Church is the true believers. The church is a place to hang out, and think highly of yourselves, while you pretend to do God a favor by keeping at least an hour out of the week holy unto Him. Yes, full of hypocrites they are.


Quote:
The "way" (the early church) which believed fully in UR was considered to be of the devil by the jews , so what's your point ?

Prove it and without using your false teachers websites. Show me the original manuscripts, translated, from a reputable source.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:26 PM
 
Location: RI
18,181 posts, read 8,266,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yes. The real Church is the true believers. The church is a place to hang out, and think highly of yourselves, while you pretend to do God a favor by keeping at least an hour out of the week holy unto Him. Yes, full of hypocrites they are.





Prove it and without using your false teachers websites. Show me the original manuscripts, translated, from a reputable source.
There have been plenty of links of what the early church believed on here .
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 3,658,192 times
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Quote=pcamps
I have been put to shame and found myself in repentance on numerous occasions when i have seen living evidence of the good news in someones life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HatinAZ
Good, maybe someday the repentance will stick, and you will not have to keep repeating it based upon what you see someone else doing. And you say I don't love God. Sheesh.
...BINGO! pcamps...you have NEVER truly repented...if you had, you wouldn't have had to repent...and repent...and repent, over and over again. TRUE repentance is a one time deal!
True repentance is when you have given up the old man, and were changed into the new man...new character...new nature...Christ-like...filled with the Spirit of Christ from the point of true repentance...on...able to overcome sin by the power of the Spirit that indwells you at the point of True repentance....THIS IS when one is Truly Born-Again!

Last edited by Verna Perry; 09-13-2009 at 01:42 PM..
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:38 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,753,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The scriptures are not just doctrine, the main theme from Genesis to Revelation is "things concerning Jesus"

Where does it say in the scriptures which you happen to believe is a bunch of doctrines say it is our responsibility to magnify the evil of a man's heart ? , when the scriptures in Roman's chapter two verse 4 tells us it's the goodness of God that causes a man to repent.

Never once said you don't love God , but what i do know from what you are posting is you know a bunch of traditions and doctrines of the institutionlized church , which tells me why you put down ,love,grace,mercy and compassion and love magnifying sin and talking about.
Again, you have no idea what you are even talking about.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"

How can a man repent of his evil, wicked ways, if he doesn't know HOW evil, wicked he truly is, in the sight of God and His Holy Law? After coming to this knowledge, if the Spirit has drawn him in, the man will fall down crying to his Father,,,for forgiveness. The man knows how much the Father has done, concerning His Son and the world, and how much He loves us with a love that cannot not even be described in words.

But, then what? If the man was TRULY remorseful for his sin, and thankful for the forgiveness and mercy and compassion shown to him, then repentance is the next logical step. And I say logical because of the Love shown him, he desires to return the love to the Father and the Son, although he cannot grasp the raging war that is between the flesh and the spirit. He then realizes that he cannot do this alone, as the flesh will win. He needs a rebirth of the spirit, by the Spirit. This way having been born again he can walk in Divine Love, and this perfection is manifested to the world as a shining Light for all to see.

Now, when people see this for themselves,,,this may lead God to draw them in as well. But the message cannot change, because God does not change.

But it should not be believers desiring this from other believers they see, because they are already believers. If they desire this from other believers, I would question their beliefs to start with. This is not a contest to see who is a better Christian. This is a fight for Truth.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:40 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,753,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
There have been plenty of links of what the early church believed on here .
Sorry, no tentmaker, mercifulgrace, or any of the other heretical sites. Use something solid. I will bet you they are not there.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yes. The real Church is the true believers. The church is a place to hang out, and think highly of yourselves, while you pretend to do God a favor by keeping at least an hour out of the week holy unto Him. Yes, full of hypocrites they are.

Prove it and without using your false teachers websites. Show me the original manuscripts, translated, from a reputable source.
You can read this: New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

and decide for yourself.
Or here you can read the actual text of Clemens Alexandrinus: Clement of Alexandria and others as well.

But you have to do the reading and research. Not just sit back and deny they exist.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:50 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,753,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You can read this: New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

and decide for yourself.
Or here you can read the actual text of Clemens Alexandrinus: Clement of Alexandria and others as well.

But you have to do the reading and research. Not just sit back and deny they exist.
will do, thank you.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:53 PM
 
Location: RI
18,181 posts, read 8,266,227 times
Reputation: 1293
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Sorry, no tentmaker, mercifulgrace, or any of the other heretical sites. Use something solid. I will bet you they are not there.
So prove to me the early church universally believed ET or anihilation , and then i will decided which sites are applicable or not.

What you are saying is i reject it before i am even willing to enquire it be the truth or not .

What you don't see is we have looked into the church vile doctrine of ET and anihilation and found it to be the very thing we always suspected.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:56 PM
 
Location: RI
18,181 posts, read 8,266,227 times
Reputation: 1293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Quote=pcamps
I have been put to shame and found myself in repentance on numerous occasions when i have seen living evidence of the good news in someones life.
...BINGO! pcamps...you have NEVER truly repented...if you had, you wouldn't have had to repent...and repent...and repent, over and over again. TRUE repentance is a one time deal!
True repentance is when you have given up the old man, and were changed into the new man...new character...new nature...Christ-like...filled with the Spirit of Christ from the point of true repentance...on...able to overcome sin by the power of the Spirit that indwells you at the point of True repentance....THIS IS when one is Truly Born-Again!
Repentance is an on going thing . No wonder you think you are perfect from the day you believed and boast in keeping the 10 commandments.And you obviously do not know yourself.I will be repenting until God has finished that which He started in me.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: California
87 posts, read 74,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Really? How would you even know God the FATHER if it wasn't for morality? Remember, He is our FATHER. My children are mine, and I am their father. Do they always do good based upon their love for me? LOL, you must not have kids then.
Can you expand upon this question because I really don't know what you're implying here. I have a feeling it's a misunderstanding regarding what I mean by UR. As for always doing good, no human being save Jesus has ever been perfect. Get it? That means it's a level playing field. Your eternal torment doesn't foster perfection anymore than UR.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Ok. You grow in Love and that brings obedience. You know,,Maturing. It is not something you are "born" with.
Where did I say you were born with it? Love and compassion are a continuous process.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yea, ok. You are the expection then, to the rule. Must be nice to be perfect.
I never claimed to be perfect. I claimed that love was a greater motivator for me to respect my parents than fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Wanna bet! It is fear of the punishment that causes the Love to grow. Who could respect nor love a god who just gives everyone a "free pass" without any regard to the way they live? Shoot, my kids know better than this. They don't break my rules, not out of their "love" for me, but because I will not spare the rod. Do they want my adoration? Of course, name a kid who doesn't. But breaking the rules has consequences. If not chastisement from me, the the injuries they would cause to themselves or others. Hense the reason for the rules.
Fear of punishment causes fear. It does not cause love. Otherwise spousal abuse would be praised as the great nurturer of love. Also, I didn't say God gave people "free passes." Not punishing someone forever does not equal a free pass. Are you giving your kids free passes because your punishments are temporal instead of everlasting? I never claimed punishment in and of itself was wrong, only that when it becomes the great motivator and overshadows love it has moved beyond usefullness and is actually detrimental to its intended purpose. Everlasting punishment overshadows temporary mercy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
My God has rules. My King has rules. We follow them, BECAUSE we Love Him. But we are not perfected in this love, otherwise we would NOT sin against Him again.
We are as perfect in love as we will ever get. Paul says that one who acts in true love cannot break the commandments and Jesus says that commandments are love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Well, God is not my neighbor, He is my God. If I truly love my neighbor, then telling them about God should be a priority. It would be like seeing his house on fire, and not saying a word to him. Only this time, we are talking about their soul.
I didn't say God was your neighbor, but Jesus said to love God and to love your neighbor. And I didn't say not to tell your neighbor about God. Tell your neighbor about God. Shout it from the rooftops. Sharing the joy of God is not a crime. Making God out to be an ogre whose delight in torment outweighs his love and mercy is what I would consider the crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post

I don't. Feelings should not get in the way of letting the Holy Spirit do His job. This is how selfishness gets in the way. You rejoice, while their souls perish? Sad.
I rejoice that their souls will someday be reunited with their Father in Heaven. I rejoice that while God is just and may enact punishment at times that he is also loving and merciful. I trust that his punishments act as parental punishments with the intention to turn the sinner from their current ways and toward him. I trust that like a parent he will not give up on his children but will wait patiently until they realize, like the prodigal son, that it is time to return home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
No, it is fear leading to repentance OUT of Love. How can you see the love that God has given us, if you cannot see the ramifications of how lost we were,,,or in some peoples cases,,are.

Fear does not lead to repentence. Compassion leads to repentence. Truly coming to understand that what you do causes harm to others leads to repentence of all crimes committed against them. Realization of Jesus' character and the true extent of his actions leads to awe and admiration and gratitude which leads to repentence. Realization that God so loved the world. . .leads to reciprocal love which leads to repentence. Fear doesn't enter into it at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
It shouldn't even be a feeling. Feelings get in the way. Do you think God has feelings? Do you think His felelings are gonna get in the way of justice? you are speaking of carnal love, and not Holy Love. With Holy Love, there is no feelings. It just IS what it IS.
We disagree. Without feeling you have only logic. With pure logic there is no reason to believe in God at all, nor is there any reason to repent because repentence is a feeling, a realization. It is not an intellectual process and if you think it is than I think you are fooling yourself. Carnal love is selfish love, love that only wants what's best for yourself and doesn't care about others. Holy love is selfless love, the kind exhibited by Jesus. Wanting to follow a God whose defining trait is eternal wrath all because it means that you get to go to Heaven is carnal love. Wanting to do what's right and stand up for true revelation of God through Christ which is selfless love and to lead people to love God rather than simply to fear him is more holy. Personally I would rather my eternal soul be destined to hellfire for all of eternity than to serve a God of eternal wrath. Jesus would be with me so it's all good. After all, Jesus taught me to forgive my enemy. He did the same as he died on the cross. I'll follow his God thank you very much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
See, this is the difference between us. You say your love will do it for him. I say God's Holy Love indwelling in our hearts does it automatically for them. This is perfection, and perfect fulfilling of the Law. You think man can do it? LOL. Hasn't happened yet, except for our Savior.
When did I say men did it instead of God? Man is not sovereign. God is. God loves the world. God sends his son to die for the world. God's will is that the world be saved. How can I, a lowly human, thwart that plan? The fact is that I can't, no more than Adam and Eve could. Because you see, the story says that man fell and disobeyed God but see God turned it around and sent Jesus. Why would he go to all that trouble if he didn't give a hoot about man anyway? Why? Because he does. Even if he has ninety-nine sheep all waiting in front of him expectant he'll still go after the one who is lost and saving that one will give him more joy than the ninety-nine did. And who are we to complain? Are we to tell the man who owns the vineyard that he can't hire workers at the end of the day (after this life) but only in the beginning, or that he can't pay them the same wage as us? Why are you so adamant against his generosity?

As for a doctrine of the devil, that's just name calling. There's no argument there so why even go there? I thought you were against emotional appeals.
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