U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
 
Unread 09-14-2009, 08:27 AM
 
5,977 posts, read 3,356,042 times
Reputation: 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
I was aware of the Jehova's Witness' "take" on it, but generally have seen the common belief is one of the surety of hell for those who do not "behave" appropriately. If there's a less literal perspective, I applaud it.
No, I wasn't talking about Jehova's Witness. I'm talking about Christian Universalism, also known as Universal Salvation or Universal Reconcilliation (UR for short). From an athiest perspective, I'm sure you can understand there is lots of confusion in understanding our modern bibles - much of it brought about by some key words that have been mistranslated. Lots of info here if you are interested:

www.mercifultruth.com
www.tentmaker.org
www.bible-truths.com

When the bible is studied with an open mind, it is easy to show that the concept of "eternal torment/hell" is not in the original scriptures - it has only been inserted into the bible, largely by the KJV family of bibles and the teachings of Rome around 500 A.D. or so.

The problem is most people have been indoctrinated (even athiests) to believe that the bible teaches eternal hell.

Quote:
The next question would then be; if one is simply not a believer, because of how God organized the thinking and conclusions of an individual, why would that person, an atheist for example, go to hell simply for being an inquisitive, curious person who does not want to just follow the crowd?

As in: me.
Exactly. In fact the bible instructs us to search out the truth. And a "god" who torments most of his creation for eternity is not the truth. It doesn't make sense logically, scripturally, or philosophically.

God will not punish people for something they simply did not know or realize. God will bring all people to knowledge of the truth (though this won't happen for all at the same time, and for most it will happen after death). This is what the bible teaches. Not some "monster god" who tortures people for ever.

Peace out.
Quick reply to this message

 
Unread 09-14-2009, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 5,847,333 times
Reputation: 3600
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

God will not punish people for something they simply did not know or realize. God will bring all people to knowledge of the truth (though this won't happen for all at the same time, and for most it will happen after death). This is what the bible teaches. Not some "monster god" who tortures people for ever.

Peace out.
Appreciate it. I was once a happily faithful Christian (The United Church of Canada, which I'd say is about as bland as you could possibly imagine). My subsequent rebellion against it came as a result of lengthy exposure to university-level education in (1) engineering, then (2) biology, then (3) post-grad #1 toxicology/entomology, then (4) post-post grad ecology and environmental mgmt, including geology. All that focused truth, blended with my maturity and the realization that dogmatic theism did little to answer life's little crises, resulted in my eventual departure. My evolving life's philosophy sorta crashed up against the rocks of unthinking, blindered acceptance of whatever literal translations were passing for the inerrant truth in those days, in my church.

Given the remote (to me) possibility of a godly being running it all, single-handedly, I appreciate that He, being all powerful, is in fact responsible for my particular intellectual maturity and ardent inquisitiveness. Hey; without that aspect, we'd all still be huddled in caves, having never advanced our understanding of the immediate world around us. No spears/wars, no HDTV, no antibiotics, no cars. (Hmmm; sounds kinda pleasant, in a primitive sort of way...)

Well, thx legoman. Good come-back, in a sub-forum where Christians generally simply ignore questions from us nasty atheists....
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-14-2009, 09:08 AM
 
5,977 posts, read 3,356,042 times
Reputation: 622
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Appreciate it. I was once a happily faithful Christian (The United Church of Canada, which I'd say is about as bland as you could possibly imagine). My subsequent rebellion against it came as a result of lengthy exposure to university-level education in (1) engineering, then (2) biology, then (3) post-grad #1 toxicology/entomology, then (4) post-post grad ecology and environmental mgmt, including geology. All that focused truth, blended with my maturity and the realization that dogmatic theism did little to answer life's little crises, resulted in my eventual departure. My evolving life's philosophy sorta crashed up against the rocks of unthinking, blindered acceptance of whatever literal translations were passing for the inerrant truth in those days, in my church.

Given the remote (to me) possibility of a godly being running it all, single-handedly, I appreciate that He, being all powerful, is in fact responsible for my particular intellectual maturity and ardent inquisitiveness. Hey; without that aspect, we'd all still be huddled in caves, having never advanced our understanding of the immediate world around us. No spears/wars, no HDTV, no antibiotics, no cars. (Hmmm; sounds kinda pleasant, in a primitive sort of way...)

Well, thx legoman. Good come-back, in a sub-forum where Christians generally simply ignore questions from us nasty atheists....
Hey no problem Rifleman. In a way, our stories may be similar. I started out in the UCC myself (grew up in Sask), followed by a stream of other churches - Salvation Army, Non-donminational, Lutheran, Anglican, RCC even.

Eventually it all came crashing down as my university educated brain (engineering as well) could not reconcile a God of Love with a God who tortures most of His creation for eternity. That's when I stumbled onto Universal Salvation. For the first time I actually read and studied the bible, and came to the conclusion that YES, the bible does preach the salvation of all. Like you said, if God is all powerful, then He is indeed responsible for what each of our particular situations is. And He is responsible for saving us.

So while you abandoned belief in God entirely, I just abandoned all the religiousity that comes with Christianity (ie. thou shalt do what the church says or thou shalt burn in hell). I'm still going through that process of coming out of religious system of churchianity, and trying to understand what the heck to do now. Alot of it has involved (re)reading the bible and trying to untwist the lies of what the church has taught, and see what the bible really says.

Anyway I firmly believe God has everyone where He wants them, even you Rifleman.

Later...
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-14-2009, 04:48 PM
 
40 posts, read 22,518 times
Reputation: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I actually agree with all your points here.
HotinAZ, I think we share most of the same beliefs (really all but one). And while annihilation (am I correct in understanding that's what you believe?) is certainly easier to stomach than ET, it makes very little purpose for judgement. What use is it to explain/show/ punish people for the wrong they did if you are simply going to destroy them afterward? If God truly intended to destroy any of his creation, and was really a loving a merciful God, wouldn't he simply let their spirit perish with their flesh? I guess my biggest hangup with ET and Annihilation has always been that it seems to hold the idea that, although by their own guilt, certain members of God's creation are somehow un-savable, and nothing is impossible for God.

While pondering the possibilities of ET/Annihilation and UR, I had these thoughts:
God has told us that he is loving, merciful, and powerful ( I know he is other things too). And not only is he these things, but he is the quintessence of each. Therefore, if something can be more loving, powerful, or than God, it, and not he, must be God.
So if your God is to ULTIMATELY save some or even most of his creation, then yes, he is loving and powerful and merciful.
But if my God is going to ULTIMATELY save ALL of his creation, despite their ignorance, disobedience, sin, etc. Isn't he more powerful and loving than yours? How many God's can there be? Just one Right? So which one must be the true God?
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-15-2009, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
920 posts, read 502,547 times
Reputation: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Huh?

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

I must say that I disagree with this. You are making it out that Jesus is actuallly anti-Christ in nature.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

These verses indicate it is not Jesus. Jesus is not the "man of sin". He doesn't oppose God. He never once exalted Himself above God.
First, identifying who "with them" are.
God selected, the chosen, a people, to identify with Him His presences on earth via His laws.
Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

There was no falling away from those judgments and statues, for they (them) entered in it with an oath.

Now, unless there is a falling away from that oath, that Jesus came to fulfill, and be revealed as the man of sin, they can not enter into the kingdom of God.

You and I can enter in because we come under Jesus' Grace as our old man falls away first, and repent from it to a new understanding and identify that Jesus was the man of sin who took away the sins of the world.

The ones (Them) that crucified Jesus, Jesus kept as promised when He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

According to "them", to their understanding, Jesus exalted Himself "above all that is called God", thus accused of blasphemy.

Not only that, but the clincher was when Jesus "cut them off" when He said to them: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Until Jesus, "them" the chosen had the only ties to the God of the universe according to Moses' law and therefore, could not accept any other doctrine other than the one God gave them via Moses.

Far fetched? Not the least bit,.

If our eyes our open to the deeper things of the word of God, understanding is enlarged.

Blessings, AJ
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-15-2009, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
920 posts, read 502,547 times
Reputation: 85
When God "breath" into the body of clay, The clay became a living soul. (Adam)
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now both male and female, (a couple) are both called "Adam".
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So the soul then is, the body inhabited, is what dies, but the spirit that inhabits the soul has a name, character and is what lives on, and that is what Christ died for.

So when the words "soul that inherits" is speaking to the spirit of that soul, for the soul dies at the end of this life.

So now, if God created a body for Mankind to inhabit, and that mankind "pro-creates" via child birth, then God saves the spirit of that soul in time or out of time, depending the time we lived or died.

Jesus came to save that spirit in the souls that "was lost" in the process.

Thus, universal reconciliation, from day one and for all future generations.

Blessings, AJ
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-15-2009, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,847 posts, read 2,717,019 times
Reputation: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 View Post
Now, unless there is a falling away from that oath, that Jesus came to fulfill, and be revealed as the man of sin, they can not enter into the kingdom of God.
Are you seriously suggesting that Jesus was the man of sin to be revealed in 2 Thess
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-15-2009, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
920 posts, read 502,547 times
Reputation: 85
When the Jews accept Jesus as revealed, their eyes shall be opened after a falling away from their former stance.
Recall at the time of Moses when the firy seperpent was raised up on a pole for those who looked upon it would be bitten?

The same for those who look at Jesus on the cross are bitten and saved.

Similarities?

Blessings, AJ
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-19-2009, 12:17 PM
 
13 posts, read 6,715 times
Reputation: 12
Default The Soul

Your argument is in no way conclusive:

There are a great many mistranslations in the interpretation of the original root languages to English and even Latin.

In light of this fact the root must equally be defined through culture and contemporary usage.

The soul by Jewish definition was largely rendered as Nephesh.
However its application most commonly referred as follows:

The mind-will and emotional aspects of a persons identity. It also .encompasses the ability to manifest or express sentiment, compassion, mercy love ect.

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b) living being
c) living being (with life in the blood)
d) the man himself, self, person or individual
e) seat of the appetites
f) seat of emotions and passions
g) activity of mind
1) dubious
h) activity of the will
1) dubious
i) activity of the character

Scriptural usage was relationship or communion:

Gen:17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Ex: 12:19 whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel

Ex: 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people

Sometimes referring to the physical body or the individual:

Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Lev 5:1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and [is] a witness, whether he hath seen or known [of it]; if he do not utter [it], then he shall bear his iniquity.

Lev 5:2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether [it be] a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and [if] it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

Lev 5:4
Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with [his] lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever [it be] that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth [of it], then he shall be guilty in one of these.

Lev 5:15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:

Lev 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;

I believe that the utilization of the word SOUL in this manner 27 times alone in Levicticus sets a precedent.

Now to the New testament and your specific quote Matt: 16:26

The word SOUL is the Greek word is Psyche which again through definition and practical application is equal to the Hebrew countrpart. Though in some occassion can be interchanged with the term Spirit or "Force of life". a total of 58 times.

However the same term is utilized equally in reference to physical life a total of 40 times.

Each of these scriptures could be rendered as SOUL though the context is PHYSICAL LIFE.

Matt 2:20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life (PSYCHE),
Matt 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life (PSYCHE), , what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life(PSYCHE), more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mark 4:3 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life(PSYCHE), or to kill? But they held their peace.
Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life(PSYCHE), also, he cannot be my disciple.
Acts 27:22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of [any man's] life (PSYCHE), among you, but of the ship.
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my (PSYCHE),
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life (PSYCHE), died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Regarding the scripture you quoted It is clear that Jesus is speaking contextually regarding self denial and self sacrifice.
It is also clear that he was speaking of an individual revelation to each person in their own time and not to some cataclysmic event "Second coming" as orthodoxy adheres to.


Let us always be mindful to study to show ourselves approved!!

SELAH!!

Last edited by ATOMICJESUSRADIO; 09-19-2009 at 12:54 PM.. Reason: hyperlinks
Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 09-19-2009, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 454,041 times
Reputation: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
These are Jesus' own words:



Plain and stark as day. No aions or anions or forevers or eternals or eternities or any references to length for UR'ers to wiggle around with arguments of, "Well the original texts use "eon" and "era" which denotes a limited duration of time."

Nope. Jesus gives us a simple truth: live for the world and work to gain it, and you lose your soul. No ifs ands or buts. Did Jesus anywhere imply in that short sentence that if you gain the world you lose your soul for only an eon or two? When I advice someone not to carry their keys around in their hands because they might lose them, is my warning interpreted as only losing them temporarily because some good soul might find them and return them, or do I mean they might lose them permanently? I think it's pretty clear Jesus was saying you lose your soul forever, and that NOT anion!
You're right. Congratulations and hooray!!! The vast majority of mankind has been, is, and will be born into, live in, and die in darkness and torment. Then it's forever in seperation from God! All due to a lack of knowledge.

That's just great news! What a thing to be happy about and to celebrate!

Yay! Trillions of people burning in hell forever! How glorifying to God!!! How exciting. I must share this Good News with everyone...about how God loves them under certain conditions but just has to disgard them (shucky darn it!!) otherwise. Then they can take that understanding of what true love is and teach it to their children in word and deed! Sweet! Unconditional love with some minor conditions!

Thanks for clearing this up. God's love just seems to huge, so enduring, so unconditional now!
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $74,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top