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Old 10-23-2009, 06:00 AM
 
Location: Rapid City, SD
723 posts, read 1,042,337 times
Reputation: 135

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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Of course nobody will enter in unless they exceed the righteousness but the great news is that EVERYONE eventually will because Jesus came to destroy SIN - I'm pretty sure He meant ALL sin!



The parable of the unforgiving servant shows that the unforgiving servant was NOT forgiven but eventually what happened? - he was only tormented TILL (get that) TILL he paid all that was due.



But the Greek actually says few that are finding it (present tense). Of course there were only few finding it at that time. But eventually ALL shall find it. See the person that preaches Eternal Torment wants us to believe that Few will EVER find it (Future tense) which is contrary to what the verse actually is.




Goes back to the previous comment. Nobody will enter Heaven except they that do His Will. It is like me saying - nobody will enter the house unless they have clean feet. Well guess what? - as soon as their feet get clean they get to enter the house.



Again, already covered. Everntually all shall be converted and enter.



The Many is ALL.



Again, all shall EVENTUALLY be born again.



Let's look at what Jesus is NOT preaching. He is NOT preaching that many are not EVER going to enter Heaven. He is preaching that many are not entering Heaven (present tense).

Let's face - the doctrine of Eternal Torment preaches that God has decided to make a HOME For SINNERS where SIN shall keep its subjects in eternal rebellion against God. Yes SIN Is the KING of HELL for SIN itself gets ETERNAL dominion. That is what ETERNAL Torment preaches. It preaches that Jesus FAILS to eradicate ALL Sin but instead lets the wicked continue in their sin of rebellion for the rest of eternity. Yes - that is what ETERNAL Torment teaches. It teaches that God brought some into the world (knowing the end from the very beginning) for vain reasons. It teaches that Death gets a victory in stealing a potential child from God.

I'm glad God has shown my heart His ALMIGHTY Power and that He has me in the belief that He is going to come and DESTROY every wicked nature that has ever existed and has the POWER to CLEAN us from sin and evil. After all what reward is there if He can't? What power is there in only being able to save the righteous? Can He not save the SINNER - No He can't according to the preachers of Eternal Torment - at least not the greatest sinners - His desire is not for them - according to the Eternal Torment preacher.

Come on does that really make sense to you that God would be that powerless?[/quote]






Who said anything about eternal torment??? You Universalists always say the same thing to non-universalists about God being powerless. I do not believe he is powerless!! I believe as Jesus said "fear not the ones who can kill the body, but fear God who has the POWER to DESTROY both body and soul in hell"

He didn't say you live in hell forever, he said DESTROYED in hell. That's pretty powerful if you ask me!!! I know that you universalists hearts are in the right place, but don't you think that your beliefs feed into the hands of people who sin knowingly but do not care who they hurt, or step on to get what they want?? I am not saying that any of you guys inparticular act or think in this way. In fact speaking (typing) with most of you in these last few months, I can honestly say that universalists that I have met online are some of the most caring, loving, and very well educated individuals. But I would most definately guarantee that people will use this religious view for very evil purposes. Not to say that there isn't evil individuals in other religious views. Including my own. But there is something disturbing about the thought that it doesn't matter how bad we are or what sins I commit. Because I am living the greatest life!! I'll deal with the smack on the hand that my Father gives me after I have my fun!!! Again I do not believe that anyone on C-D acts or thinks in this way. It is just an example of how evil people could use this view to commit evil deeds and decieve others into thinking the same way!! On that note, I hope I did not offend anyone, and I am very proud to call all of you my brothers and sisters!!!


GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Texas
31 posts, read 39,989 times
Reputation: 15
ALMOST2L8 In fact speaking (typing) with most of you in these last few months, I can honestly say that universalists that I have met online are some of the most caring, loving, and very well educated individuals. But I would most definately guarantee that people will use this religious view for very evil purposes. Not to say that there isn't evil individuals in other religious views. Including my own. But there is something disturbing about the thought that it doesn't matter how bad we are or what sins I commit. Because I am living the greatest life!! I'll deal with the smack on the hand that my Father gives me after I have my fun!!! Again I do not believe that anyone on C-D acts or thinks in this way. It is just an example of how evil people could use this view to commit evil deeds and decieve others into thinking the same way!!



Casey Hollowell response to the above comment made by ALMOST2L8
Questions and Statements: In regards to the above quote not saying I am considered a "Universalistic person" however, I do have a question as a Saint to another Saint (this is what Jesus called us; he never called himself or anyone a Christian neither did the Apostles). Whether you’re a "Universalistic person" or "Saint", don't we still have sinful acts? Aren’t we comforted to know that we as believers have a "get out of hell free card"? We cannot be concerned with the intensions of the wicked. We have to keep moving forward and not keep trying to deflect what Jesus said will happen. We have no power to change the hearts of man or to save anyone. That is what Jesus did and is doing through His Spirit. Just because we believe differently doesn't mean it changes what Jesus did. It's as if we are arguing over a baseball game that happened 2,000 years ago. No matter how good our arguments are it will never change what happened. However, what it can do is turn people off from ever wanting to hear the word baseball again. This is happening today. What has been and is still being preached today is that we have to believe in Jesus in the death, burial and resurrection in order to have eternal life. With this kind of teaching, look at all it excludes. It excludes the ones that died before Christ, the ones that did not live in the region where Christ and His Disciples walked. Even now the ones in other countries or even in our own country where people are raised up in a non "Christian" lifestyle. More so, ones that are forced to believe a certain religion and it’s all they know through their heritage. People are dying everyday and as much as we would like to believe all would have the chance to know Christ before they die, will. However, sadly it has not happened and will not happen in this life. Look at our history since Christ died until now. Apparently, if you believe in the resurrection you would agree that by being resurrected there will be some left behind. This is not up for discussion because we all know the truth which is we would be a fool to believe anything without out our own knowledge and to strictly base it on someone else’s. Well, in the same reference if I have to believe in what a man tells me as truth in order to get salvation then I could of went to Mohammed for that matter or even Buda. Face it, we are to only know what the Father reveals through His Spirit not mans. I don't understand why we keep saying we have to believe or accept Jesus in order to get saved for eternity because from what Jesus told Nicodemus which was he must be born again in order to ever know Christ. I can believe all kinds of things all day long but it still doesn't make them true. Beliefs can be altered but knowing will never be snatched away. The only way to know who Jesus is would be through God and only He determines who gets born again through His sovereignty. Remember, saved (Sozo) eternity Jesus did through death, burial and resurrection (Good News). Salvation (Sonterio) means being saved in this life from our own hearts which is wicked God says. Sonterio (salvation) is what Jesus is doing through Gods Spirit. We have NO power to save anyone. Not one good message can save anyone from eternal flame. Jesus already did that. He through His Spirit will help us know not believe who He is. He (God) needs a preacher to preach the Good News to let the lost know who Jesus is and what Jesus did for them. We teach what door salesman teach. Door salesmen give a big pitch on how this certain vacuum cleaner will make our lives easier and begin to tell us it does all these great things and your even considering purchasing it until... the cost is revealed and you realize its too expensive. Maybe your thinking its too good to be true... either way, you still close the door. Good News is only good if it doesn't cost anything nor if it requires anything of you. Right?
Be Blessed
************************************************** *****************************

Last edited by casey hollowell; 10-23-2009 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,321,584 times
Reputation: 1031
Quote:
He didn't say you live in hell forever, he said DESTROYED in hell. That's pretty powerful if you ask me!!! I know that you universalists hearts are in the right place, but don't you think that your beliefs feed into the hands of people who sin knowingly but do not care who they hurt, or step on to get what they want?? I am not saying that any of you guys inparticular act or think in this way. In fact speaking (typing) with most of you in these last few months, I can honestly say that universalists that I have met online are some of the most caring, loving, and very well educated individuals. But I would most definately guarantee that people will use this religious view for very evil purposes. Not to say that there isn't evil individuals in other religious views.
according to your post you seem to believe in annihilation, let me only answer what I put in bold type.

I must say I prefer to discuss with annihilationists, the reason is I have no moral objection against this doctrine unlike the doctrine of everlasting torment, this makes a discussion less emotional so that one has to argue better and more in depth, and also annihilationists seem to be more open minded then believers in the "traditional" doctrine.

Biblical universalism does not teach that all men go instantly to heaven when they die. Universalists of earlier date, believed in a literal hellfire for thousands of years, e.g. the German professor E.F. Stroeter who lived about a 100 years ago or some of the early churchfathers, as for example Clemens of Alexandria.

I personally believe that most sins are punished in this life, however some people have done too worse to be punished adequate in this life, as for example people like Hitler, I personally believe in soul sleep and that the white throne jugdment is similar like some of the the talmudic Jewish views on Gehinnom, a kind of purgatory, though not literal fire.

most atheists do in fact believe in annihilation, so how does the threat of eternal death impress them? Faith in God should not be based on fear and annihilation is something many fear the least, however when all will be saved, even ignorant people should understand that they have to face the consequences for what they do before they may enter paradise.

before I believed in the bible, I somehow thought there is a God, but I somehow knew in my heart, though there is most propably a judgment at least for certain sins, He will not torture anybody forevermore.

to sum it up, I think most sins are punished in this life and most people won't go to Gehinnom, however I believe some people may go to Gehinnom for decades, but no longer than 50 years. I know this particular belief has no scriptural basis, but it is what I assume personally, I wrote 50 years, because the Jubilee year and I think nobody sins much longer than 50 years, because he is either too young or too old to be fully responsible for his actions.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
1,248 posts, read 1,253,456 times
Reputation: 125
The word kingdom seems to be a stumbling block.
Some say this, some say that, and others say look here it is or no, there it is.
When Jesus was here did He not say: Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

To shut out the kingdom of heaven is to require a standard that all must comply, such as in the next verse:

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

The kingdom of heaven is not a place, but a state of heart where the only requirement is to desire it.

Prior to Jesus was the kingdom of God with mankind? Read next verse: Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

"The one coming after me" is the kingdom of God with mankind. That was the begining of the signs:Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

So what were/is the requirement again for entering, or better yet, seeing the kingdom of God?Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Another stumbling block, "born again".

Very simple folks, to understand, to see the kingdom of God, one must first have a desire to, giving room in your heart to let God come in and rebirth Himself in you as a newborn babe, and began to growth spiritually as your flesh prospers, meaning maturing.

Notice in all I've said that I did not mention any particular denomination, church affiliation, a belief system and or any no christian belief?

Why? Because God is a merciful God and will quote: Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If some take words literally, as some do, then you must also take these 3 words literally as well, " if any man".

Blessings, AJ

Last edited by look3467; 10-23-2009 at 11:04 AM.. Reason: Verse taken out not intended.
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Old 10-23-2009, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Texas
31 posts, read 39,989 times
Reputation: 15
rapture not ressurection wrong word SORRY:-)
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 7,002,965 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
Let's look at what Jesus is NOT preaching. He is NOT preaching that many are not EVER going to enter Heaven. He is preaching that many are not entering Heaven (present tense).

Let's face - the doctrine of Eternal Torment preaches that God has decided to make a HOME For SINNERS where SIN shall keep its subjects in eternal rebellion against God. Yes SIN Is the KING of HELL for SIN itself gets ETERNAL dominion. That is what ETERNAL Torment preaches. It preaches that Jesus FAILS to eradicate ALL Sin but instead lets the wicked continue in their sin of rebellion for the rest of eternity. Yes - that is what ETERNAL Torment teaches. It teaches that God brought some into the world (knowing the end from the very beginning) for vain reasons. It teaches that Death gets a victory in stealing a potential child from God.

I'm glad God has shown my heart His ALMIGHTY Power and that He has me in the belief that He is going to come and DESTROY every wicked nature that has ever existed and has the POWER to CLEAN us from sin and evil. After all what reward is there if He can't? What power is there in only being able to save the righteous? Can He not save the SINNER - No He can't according to the preachers of Eternal Torment - at least not the greatest sinners - His desire is not for them - according to the Eternal Torment preacher.

Come on does that really make sense to you that God would be that powerless?





Who said anything about eternal torment??? You Universalists always say the same thing to non-universalists about God being powerless. I do not believe he is powerless!! I believe as Jesus said "fear not the ones who can kill the body, but fear God who has the POWER to DESTROY both body and soul in hell"

He didn't say you live in hell forever, he said DESTROYED in hell. That's pretty powerful if you ask me!!! I know that you universalists hearts are in the right place, but don't you think that your beliefs feed into the hands of people who sin knowingly but do not care who they hurt, or step on to get what they want?? I am not saying that any of you guys inparticular act or think in this way. In fact speaking (typing) with most of you in these last few months, I can honestly say that universalists that I have met online are some of the most caring, loving, and very well educated individuals. But I would most definately guarantee that people will use this religious view for very evil purposes. Not to say that there isn't evil individuals in other religious views. Including my own. But there is something disturbing about the thought that it doesn't matter how bad we are or what sins I commit. Because I am living the greatest life!! I'll deal with the smack on the hand that my Father gives me after I have my fun!!! Again I do not believe that anyone on C-D acts or thinks in this way. It is just an example of how evil people could use this view to commit evil deeds and decieve others into thinking the same way!! On that note, I hope I did not offend anyone, and I am very proud to call all of you my brothers and sisters!!!


GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8[/quote]

Of course it MATTERS how bad or evil you are - and of course it matters to universalists. Do you know a UNIVERSALIST that believe you can be saved with an EVIL Nature? - I doubt it - if they do I believe the scriptures refute them. The way it is - is that we believe the EVIL NATURE - that BAD person that we are gets DESTROYED - and it gets destroyed by the same way it destroyed Paul's evil nature, Peter's, Mark's, Mathew's, etc... By the Holy Spirit. I don't know of any other way in scripture that EVIL can be destroyed. But ANYONE that preaches annihilationism or Eternal torment has already preached a God that is NOT almighty.

Paul
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 7,002,965 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey hollowell View Post
ALMOST2L8 In fact speaking (typing) with most of you in these last few months, I can honestly say that universalists that I have met online are some of the most caring, loving, and very well educated individuals. But I would most definately guarantee that people will use this religious view for very evil purposes. Not to say that there isn't evil individuals in other religious views. Including my own. But there is something disturbing about the thought that it doesn't matter how bad we are or what sins I commit. Because I am living the greatest life!! I'll deal with the smack on the hand that my Father gives me after I have my fun!!! Again I do not believe that anyone on C-D acts or thinks in this way. It is just an example of how evil people could use this view to commit evil deeds and decieve others into thinking the same way!!



Casey Hollowell response to the above comment made by ALMOST2L8
Questions and Statements: In regards to the above quote not saying I am considered a "Universalistic person" however, I do have a question as a Saint to another Saint (this is what Jesus called us; he never called himself or anyone a Christian neither did the Apostles). Whether you’re a "Universalistic person" or "Saint", don't we still have sinful acts? Aren’t we comforted to know that we as believers have a "get out of hell free card"? We cannot be concerned with the intensions of the wicked. We have to keep moving forward and not keep trying to deflect what Jesus said will happen. We have no power to change the hearts of man or to save anyone. That is what Jesus did and is doing through His Spirit. Just because we believe differently doesn't mean it changes what Jesus did. It's as if we are arguing over a baseball game that happened 2,000 years ago. No matter how good our arguments are it will never change what happened. However, what it can do is turn people off from ever wanting to hear the word baseball again. This is happening today. What has been and is still being preached today is that we have to believe in Jesus in the death, burial and resurrection in order to have eternal life. With this kind of teaching, look at all it excludes. It excludes the ones that died before Christ, the ones that did not live in the region where Christ and His Disciples walked. Even now the ones in other countries or even in our own country where people are raised up in a non "Christian" lifestyle. More so, ones that are forced to believe a certain religion and it’s all they know through their heritage. People are dying everyday and as much as we would like to believe all would have the chance to know Christ before they die, will. However, sadly it has not happened and will not happen in this life. Look at our history since Christ died until now. Apparently, if you believe in the resurrection you would agree that by being resurrected there will be some left behind. This is not up for discussion because we all know the truth which is we would be a fool to believe anything without out our own knowledge and to strictly base it on someone else’s. Well, in the same reference if I have to believe in what a man tells me as truth in order to get salvation then I could of went to Mohammed for that matter or even Buda. Face it, we are to only know what the Father reveals through His Spirit not mans. I don't understand why we keep saying we have to believe or accept Jesus in order to get saved for eternity because from what Jesus told Nicodemus which was he must be born again in order to ever know Christ. I can believe all kinds of things all day long but it still doesn't make them true. Beliefs can be altered but knowing will never be snatched away. The only way to know who Jesus is would be through God and only He determines who gets born again through His sovereignty. Remember, saved (Sozo) eternity Jesus did through death, burial and resurrection (Good News). Salvation (Sonterio) means being saved in this life from our own hearts which is wicked God says. Sonterio (salvation) is what Jesus is doing through Gods Spirit. We have NO power to save anyone. Not one good message can save anyone from eternal flame. Jesus already did that. He through His Spirit will help us know not believe who He is. He (God) needs a preacher to preach the Good News to let the lost know who Jesus is and what Jesus did for them. We teach what door salesman teach. Door salesmen give a big pitch on how this certain vacuum cleaner will make our lives easier and begin to tell us it does all these great things and your even considering purchasing it until... the cost is revealed and you realize its too expensive. Maybe your thinking its too good to be true... either way, you still close the door. Good News is only good if it doesn't cost anything nor if it requires anything of you. Right?
Be Blessed
************************************************** *****************************
I think people are kidding themselves if they believe they are not under the Wrath of God. We are no longer under the Wrath of God once we have been given His Spirit. At that point we may not have to endure the wrath to come. But anyone that dies is under WRATH of God. Remember God's WRATH is GOOD - God cannot work EVIL toward ANYONE. That means God only works GOOD towards all of us.
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:17 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,898,343 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8 View Post
I need to see more verses throughout the Bible that support your THEORY!!!


GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8


He is overlooking the word "in" as in "IN Christ". Those who are in Christ shall receive eternal life.

Who is "in" Christ?

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If all mankind walks after the Spirit then Universalism is correct. However that is not the case.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth * in him * ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


Those who commit sin are not IN Christ.


HK
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Texas
31 posts, read 39,989 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Amen....!
I'm sticking with Jesus!! The latter is man's theory of what Christ proclaimed!!
But keep enduring..... posting the "TRUTH" of Gods precious word. You just never know what the Holy Spirit is doing and whom He is leading and has prepared to read your post!!!

Blessings
based on what you are agreeing to(the above quote by ALMOST) if the kingdom of heaven is the final resting place for eternal life, then no-one is going. NOT even you... Please study "kingdom of heaven" again. Be Blessed (Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you).
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Texas
31 posts, read 39,989 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongoslade223 View Post
You have to be born again in Christ to recieve salvation. His death and risining made that possible.
How does one be born again?
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