Will The Real Father Of Jesus Come Forward. The Holy Ghost Or God The Father? (crucifixion, Gospel)
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Amen to that. I used to believe a lot of this churchology myself. When you get to the point where you are able to open your mind and search for the truth, it is a totally amazing thing. The trouble with a lot of what the modern church teaches is that they can`t see the spiritual things..IMO. They want to see just about everything in the literal sense. Everything from Adam and Eve to the anti-christ. Just like the religious leaders of Jesus`s day who were stuck in the physical and literal ways of the law,so is the church, again IMO. Jesus was all about spiritual things. When one can consider God as spiritual and think,worship,and try to understand God in a spiritual way, the light begins to come on and the key to understanding a lot of biblical passages becomes clearer.
It is not an easy thing to do because we are human and live in a physical world. We read something in the bible and want to take it literally. But that is what Jesus was saying..we have to become spiritual. We have to let go of the physical things. We have to be willing to let go of what we have been taught. Most people just can`t do that. They are not willing to let go. They think they are doing God`s will and they think they have the truth. But they think the church must be right.They think that the learned religous leaders must be right. Just like the learned religous leaders of Jesus`s day. People held them in high regard. But they were wrong. They didn`t understand the spiritual things. This is not an attack on those who follow after the church. It is a hard thing to see. Most will not see it. They will defend what they have been taught till the end. I just tell people that it is not blasphemy to know the deeper spiritual things of God. Ask God to set you free. Search for the truth. Search for it. Just don`t sit there and accept everything you are taught. Again, I know it isn`t easy because we trust the church. We trust the people who are teaching us. We put our faith in them and believe them. But we shouldn`t put our faith in man. But our faith and trust should be in God. He will lead us. But I also know that God has to do the leading.
Jesus is God's son, conception took place out of the holy spirit. If a man has a son, it is his son, it was conceived out of his sperm, but you wouldn't say you were the son of sperm. Well, perhaps you might, but that's a personal problem.
again, jesus refrained from the independent use of his deity while on earth.
scripture that saids jesus refrained from the independent use of his deity.
Scripture pertaining to the Kenosis of Christ:
Philippians 2:6-8 'who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7) but he deprived Himself of the proper function of deity, having assumed the form or essence of a slave, having become in likeness of mankind(without the old sin nature but with the human spirit) 8) And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [verse 7 is a literal translation from the Greek by Robert B. Thieme, Jr.]
In Matthew 4:1-10 we see Satan challenging the Kenosis of Christ by tempting Jesus to use His own deity instead of relying on the sustaining ministry of God the Holy Spirit.
It is important to realize that KENOSIS, from the verb KENOO, meaning "to deprive oneself of proper function" (pertaining to Christ, the function of deity), does not mean the loss of His deity or any of the characteristics of His deity. Only that He voluntarily set aside the use of His deity.
Jesus Christ could not use His deity and at the same time provide salvation for man. For example; it was necessary for Christ to become obedient unto death.
Philippians 2:8. Jesus Christ is God and as such He is eternal life. However, eternal life can't die on a Cross. For Christ to die on the Cross He had to refrain from using His deity to perpetuate His life.
As God, Jesus Christ is absolute and perfect righteousness, and as such, the very idea of coming into contact with sin was detestable, disgusting to Christ. Therefore, when He was being judged on the Cross for our sins, (1 Peter 2:24), He had to refrain from using His righteousness or else He would have rejected the judgment of those sins.
(This answer is based on material from 'Celebrityship of Jesus Christ' by Robert B. Thieme, Jr.)
Quote:
independent use? Independent from what , god?
Put in a different way, Christ refrained from using His own deity apart from the Fathers Will in keeping with His reason for coming into the world, and instead relied on the sustaining ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 2:6-8 'who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7) but he deprived Himself of the proper function of deity, having assumed the form or essence of a slave, having become in likeness of mankind(without the old sin nature but with the human spirit) 8) And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. [verse 7 is a literal translation from the Greek by Robert B. Thieme, Jr.]
In Matthew 4:1-10 we see Satan challenging the Kenosis of Christ by tempting Jesus to use His own deity instead of relying on the sustaining ministry of God the Holy Spirit.
It is important to realize that KENOSIS, from the verb KENOO, meaning "to deprive oneself of proper function" (pertaining to Christ, the function of deity), does not mean the loss of His deity or any of the characteristics of His deity. Only that He voluntarily set aside the use of His deity.
Jesus Christ could not use His deity and at the same time provide salvation for man. For example; it was necessary for Christ to become obedient unto death.
Philippians 2:8. Jesus Christ is God and as such He is eternal life. However, eternal life can't die on a Cross. For Christ to die on the Cross He had to refrain from using His deity to perpetuate His life.
As God, Jesus Christ is absolute and perfect righteousness, and as such, the very idea of coming into contact with sin was detestable, disgusting to Christ. Therefore, when He was being judged on the Cross for our sins, (1 Peter 2:24), He had to refrain from using His righteousness or else He would have rejected the judgment of those sins.
(This answer is based on material from 'Celebrityship of Jesus Christ' by Robert B. Thieme, Jr.)
Put in a different way, Christ refrained from using His own deity apart from the Fathers Will in keeping with His reason for coming into the world, and instead relied on the sustaining ministry of the Holy Spirit.
If he refrained then we should be able to perform miracles too then right?
or did he use a different form of the Holy Spirit?
who came upon Mary, the Holy Ghost or God the father?
I think the Holy Spirit is the father of Jesus and not God the Father. how do you explain this?
I am a very simple pastor from the Islands of the South Pacific. Education wise, I have never gone past senior high. Having read the Bible in is simplest form with a Child like faith, I have no problem that Jesus is the Son of God, which is written all over the pages of the New Testament.Other then that it is total ignorance of the word of God.Live life and live simple.Papua New Guinea.
I am a very simple pastor from the Islands of the South Pacific. Education wise, I have never gone past senior high. Having read the Bible in is simplest form with a Child like faith, I have no problem that Jesus is the Son of God, which is written all over the pages of the New Testament.Other then that it is total ignorance of the word of God.Live life and live simple.Papua New Guinea.
Always wanted to go there on missionary trips with my church when I was younger... Anyway, I don't disagree with that.
It's pretty plain and doesn't need doctrine that is contradictory to explain it. It is simple.
Yes it is the doctrine of kenosis..
From Bible.org - The Empty God
This seems to be the general view of the entire "faith message" school of thought, and it is becoming prominent in other charismatic circles as well.
(1) "Jesus hadn't come to earth as God; He'd come as a man. He'd laid aside His divine power and had taken on the form of a human being--with all its limitations."
(2) "They [orthodox Christians] mistakenly believe that Jesus was able to work wonders, to perform miracles, and to live above sin because He had divine power that we don't have...They don't realize that when Jesus came to earth, He voluntarily gave up that advantage [deity] living His life here not as God, but as a man. He had no innate supernatural powers. He had no ability to perform miracles until after He was anointed by the Holy Spirit... He ministered as a man anointed by the Holy Spirit."
ok so you believe as I believe that Jesus was a man when he was on earth.
are there any scriptures that you believe that saids he was God while he was on earth?
ok so you believe as I believe that Jesus was a man when he was on earth.
are there any scriptures that you believe that saids he was God while he was on earth?
Yes, I believe he was fully man his entire time on earth and was "crowned in glory" upon his resurrection.
Just about every time Jesus says he is of God or in God or sent by God is interpreted as Jesus being God in the flesh. But there is no reason to assume so. If I were in God and God was in me or I was sent by God... that does not imply at all that I AM GOD. It simply means that I am a tool of God.
I can list all of the scriptures that others believe point to Jesus being a deity himself... or you can read the argument here: Jesus said He is God
and see if the argument makes sense to you.
Yes, I believe he was fully man his entire time on earth and was "crowned in glory" upon his resurrection.
Just about every time Jesus says he is of God or in God or sent by God is interpreted as Jesus being God in the flesh. But there is no reason to assume so. If I were in God and God was in me or I was sent by God... that does not imply at all that I AM GOD. It simply means that I am a tool of God.
I can list all of the scriptures that others believe point to Jesus being a deity himself... or you can read the argument here: Jesus said He is God
and see if the argument makes sense to you.
so is there any scripture that saids he was God in heaven?
so is there any scripture that saids he was God in heaven?
The link I provided cites: John 17:3-12 (New International Version)
3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
6"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
The bolded portion is used as an argument that Jesus was from the beginning as was God and explains the use of we in the creation story in Genesis. However, the underlined portion indicates that we will have the same relationship with God as Christ did so I cannot really take verse 5 to mean anything other than it was God's plan that he would save the world from their sins since the beginning.
That is my opinion. I am sure there is more and I have been known to be wrong but this topic is one that is essential to most formalized religious doctrine.. so it is always met with strong opposition by some.
I like to keep my mind open to possibilities and if they don't contradict scripture then the possibility becomes a probability. Other verses seem to be found in Rev. that would support the view of Chirst as God and at the same time deny it since Christ is at God's right hand, not just reunited as God. They are portrayed as two separate people in Revelation view of heaven. IMHO.
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