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Haven't you read your history....? Christianity is Old Testament Judaism, with Christ as its Messiah. Judaism today calls itself so, but it isn't. Christ fulfilled the law, king and priestly order, as its prophets said He would.
In a theological sense, you are 100% correct.
Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament.
Theologically you're point is solid.
However, I think that it is dangerous ground to accept the OT as an historical document.
The OT isn't an historical document in the true definition of an historical record.
It is a faith based document.
(BTW, I'm an RC)
But there are independent records by writers who recorded the existence of Christ from that time.
Location: where the moss is taking over the villages
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what do the Jews think?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
Haven't you read your history....? Christianity is Old Testament Judaism, with Christ as its Messiah. Judaism today calls itself so, but it isn't. Christ fulfilled the law, king and priestly order, as its prophets said He would.
Well... I believe the Jews would know the Messiah when they saw him. In my eyes, they seem to be among the most savvy people in the world. If anyone would want to make the ultimate choice for their own benefit, it would be the Judaic people.
BTW, I really enjoy the Jews for Jesus people...
There are people on this board who can better describe how your Jesus doesn't necessarily fulfill the prophecies you speak of. I'd LOVE to hear the Jewish reckoning on this as well. Their debates are the best.
It seems that in your eyes your Christ fulfilled "the law" while copying all the best parts of the hero/savior stories that preceded him.
And I don't like a christian god who justifies evil walking the earth when the innocent suffer & the god doesn't answer the prayers of the innocent.
Well... I believe the Jews would know the Messiah when they saw him. In my eyes, they seem to be among the most savvy people in the world. If anyone would want to make the ultimate choice for their own benefit, it would be the Judaic people.
BTW, I really enjoy the Jews for Jesus people...
There are people on this board who can better describe how your Jesus doesn't necessarily fulfill the prophecies you speak of. I'd LOVE to hear the Jewish reckoning on this as well. Their debates are the best.
It seems that in your eyes your Christ fulfilled "the law" while copying all the best parts of the hero/savior stories that preceded him.
And I don't like a christian god who justifies evil walking the earth when the innocent suffer & the god doesn't answer the prayers of the innocent.
I can't put my hope in that belief system.
Kate
Most savvy people?????????????
What planet are you living on?
Their entire history has been a disaster.
Suggesting that they're savvy is the most ridiculous comment I've read on this site (and that's saying something given the variety of fruitcakes who post here).
You need to familiarise yerself with their history before attempting to post.
Location: where the moss is taking over the villages
2,184 posts, read 5,551,065 times
Reputation: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain
I think you'll find that the number of followers of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are miniscule compared to Christianity, both in terms of historical
trends and current numbers.
At this site, of the xians, the catholics are winning worldwide except in america where the protestants have the edge...spiritists outnumber all of them for one of the america columns - so haha on the others *g*
I think you'll find that the number of followers of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism are miniscule compared to Christianity, both in terms of historical
trends and current numbers.
I wasn't talking about numbers. The inference was made by Fundamentalist that the longevity of Christianity was an indication of it's truth. If that is so, we must concluded that the longevity of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism is an indication that they also must be true. Do you not agree?
...and to address your comment about numbers. The number of people that believe something is not evidence that the belief is true. It is only evidence that the belief is popular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain
As others have stated, there have been references to the historical Jesus by several contemporaneous writers, in that time period.
Then if that is so, please produce them. Who are these contemporaneous writers that mention Jesus.
Quote:
Additionally, I think you need to consider several factors as to why there are fewer references than expected.
First of all, Christ's ministry was seen as a threat by both the jews and the Romans.
Why would that stop people writing about him?
Quote:
Christ's ministry directly challenged the political establishment (Roman rule in Palestine) and the incumbent jewish religion of that same region.
Why would that stop people writing about him?
Quote:
Also, record keeping at that time cannot be compared to modern times
Granted, but there were far more mundane thing recorded in the area where Jesus is alleged to have operated than someone walking on water or raising people from the dead. The Romans kept meticulous records...no mention of any Jesus being crucified in the Roman archive. There were about 40 known historians, writer, chroniclers operation in the areas where Jesus is alleged to have been at the time he was alleged to have been there....still nothing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indurain
In a theological sense, you are 100% correct.
Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Old Testament.
Theologically you're point is solid.
No he wasn't! If he was the Jews would be worshipping him as the foretold Messiah. Jesus was not the Messiah of the Torah. Read through this thread to find where this has been discussed.
Quote:
But there are independent records by writers who recorded the existence of Christ from that time.
WHO? Back up your claim by telling us who they were.
They say, Jesus never rose from the dead. So why would these men (disciples) who believed this to be true because they claim they saw him live a lie go out devoting their lives preaching a lie only to be later tortured, beaten, imprisoned and killed for a lie?
The above is an old tired argument that sounds great, but amounts to something weak. Remember, throngs of Muslims in the early days of Islam threw themselves headlong into battle facing the great possibility of death because they believed in some fantasy that includes a bunch of virgins in the afterlife. You are employing a logical fallacy in believing that because lots of people die for a belief or cause, the belief or cause must be true.
At this site, of the xians, the catholics are winning worldwide except in america where the protestants have the edge...spiritists outnumber all of them for one of the america columns - so haha on the others *g*
Your link only shows current adherents to the various faiths.
Your link does not take account of the number of historical adherents to those faiths.
I would wager that for the past 2000 years, Christianity has had the most adherents.
Well... I believe the Jews would know the Messiah when they saw him. In my eyes, they seem to be among the most savvy people in the world. If anyone would want to make the ultimate choice for their own benefit, it would be the Judaic people.
BTW, I really enjoy the Jews for Jesus people...
There are people on this board who can better describe how your Jesus doesn't necessarily fulfill the prophecies you speak of. I'd LOVE to hear the Jewish reckoning on this as well. Their debates are the best.
It seems that in your eyes your Christ fulfilled "the law" while copying all the best parts of the hero/savior stories that preceded him.
And I don't like a christian god who justifies evil walking the earth when the innocent suffer & the god doesn't answer the prayers of the innocent.
I can't put my hope in that belief system.
Kate
The scripture, that is Old Testament, Zech 14 to be exact, speaks of the Jewish remnant being saved, and that the rest of the Jewish people, are blinded to the Messiah. Paul reiterated this as well.
Also, to respond to your last part about why you don't like the Christian God, Jesus....didn't He suffer as well, innocent and sinless from the common human, who is not sinless, the pain of toture and death?
When we look around and see all the suffering and evil in this world, we must remember that He, Jesus Christ, suffered too, without blemish.
It is disheartening to see the suffering in the world, I know, but I am reminded that even though there is suffering in man, man is still sinful, even though he is a good man, he still sins. Christ did both, He was good and He never sinned, yet He bore the sins of all in His death and suffering.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 09-14-2009 at 02:58 PM..
I wasn't talking about numbers. The inference was made by Fundamentalist that the longevity of Christianity was an indication of it's truth. If that is so, we must concluded that the longevity of Zoroastrianism and Hinduism is an indication that they also must be true. Do you not agree?
...and to address your comment about numbers. The number of people that believe something is not evidence that the belief is true. It is only evidence that the belief is popular.
I never suggested that the numbers of people who adhere to a religious belief established the proof or otherwise of the tenets of a faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
Then if that is so, please produce them. Who are these contemporaneous writers that mention Jesus.
According to the Bible that Jesus Christ opposed by both the Romans and by the jew establishment in that region.
Christ's followers were certainly persecuted and this is a matter of record.
I'm speculating here but I would think that any references or any support in terms of documenting Jesus Christ could well have been viewed as subversive by the prevailing Romans and jews in that region at that time.
This might account for the relatively few references made by contemporaneous writers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius
No he wasn't! If he was the Jews would be worshipping him as the foretold Messiah. Jesus was not the Messiah of the Torah. Read through this thread to find where this has been discussed.
The fact that the jews did not worship him was foretold in the OT.
They sealed their own fate.
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what do the Jews think?
