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Unread 09-11-2009, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
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Default Questions for Universalists who are also Preterists

I have been studying UR and while I can see many valid points that are made, because I am a very open minded person, I still have many questions that need clearing up and need further clarification that I haven't been able to find answers for.

Please HELP!
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Unread 09-11-2009, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I have been studying UR and while I can see many valid points that are made, because I am a very open minded person, I still have many questions that need clearing up and need further clarification that I haven't been able to find answers for.

Please HELP!
What are your questions? There are many tools available at Biblos.com.

Hope that helps.

I usually try to prove right what I believe to be wrong, then sometimes I find more answers.
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Unread 09-11-2009, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
What are your questions? There are many tools available at Biblos.com.

Hope that helps.

I usually try to prove right what I believe to be wrong, then sometimes I find more answers.
It is my understanding that UR believe judgments occurs on earth while we are alive, e.g., the lake of fire, the second death...I can see some of this in scripture. Some of the teaching shows that there are some who will go through the lake of fire, the second death after physical death...very confusing... but due to Predestination taught in the bible I can see where this could be true also. My question is which is it? And please provided scripture references.

I'd also like to know what UR's think our fate is after we physically die, if we die in Christ? Do we go to be with the Lord in heaven or do we just die and go back to the dirt? Please provide scripture for this also.
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Unread 09-11-2009, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I'd also like to know what UR's think our fate is after we physically die, if we die in Christ? Do we go to be with the Lord in heaven or do we just die and go back to the dirt? Please provide scripture for this also.
All I can say about that is that He wants a people who do not stand on their own righteousness, yet have the righteousness of Christ - that means an emptying of ourselves, and a filling of Himself.

Quote:
But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:2-3
When we die, we are not pure (without mixture) ...

Having been drilled in the teachings of the Cross, I see it as a major tool in the life of the believer to crucify our old man, of which a process from death to life occurs. There are precious few who follow the path of suffering (perhaps literally, perhaps not) that their cross entails.

I stand guilty above all of taking scripture and matching it to the nature and character of God - He will not tolerate sin in His presence, yet He is faithful to the uttermost to save those that come to Him by Him (Heb 7:25) - so where does the will to save all, and the purification of the saints end? Is death a barrier to Him?

I think not.
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Unread 09-11-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
It is my understanding that UR believe judgments occurs on earth while we are alive, e.g., the lake of fire, the second death...I can see some of this in scripture. Some of the teaching shows that there are some who will go through the lake of fire, the second death after physical death...very confusing... but due to Predestination taught in the bible I can see where this could be true also. My question is which is it? And please provided scripture references.

I'd also like to know what UR's think our fate is after we physically die, if we die in Christ? Do we go to be with the Lord in heaven or do we just die and go back to the dirt? Please provide scripture for this also.
I cannot answer for the whole of UR thought as I just recently acquired the label but have had the belief for sometime, so I can only research what mainstream UR's believe. Also, I believe there are two schools of thought: Universal Redemption and Universal Salvation. Most biblical scholars will agree that Jesus preached Universal Redemption, ie every man's sins are redeemed, but in turn reject Universal Salvation as true because not everyone believes upon Christ to be saved. In essence most mainstream christians are URers but not USers.. But then on this site I believe UR is an acronym of Universal Reconciliation which is synonymous with Universal Salvation.

That said... There is also Christian Universalism and Unitarian Universalism. (not to mention Vidkun Quisling's Universalism based on his view of christianity and Mussolini's version from his Catholic roots both of whom were fascists and influenced the Unitarian Universalism view.)

So the differences and similarities between Unitarian and Christian Univeralism?
Unitarian Universalism
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
  • The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
  • Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
  • Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
  • A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
  • The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
  • The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
  • Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Note: All major religions are included as are major non-religions
To quote the Rev. Marta Flanagan, "We uphold the free search for truth. We will not be bound by a statement of belief. We do not ask anyone to subscribe to a creed. We say ours is a non-creedal religion. Ours is a free faith."

In contrast, Christian Universalism believes:

  1. We believe in a God who is Love, Light, Truth, and Spirit, the Creator of the universe, whom we are called to seek, know, and love; and whose nature was revealed to the world in the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ.
  2. We believe that the universal commandment is to love and serve one another as each loves oneself.
  3. We believe in the law of justice by which actions generate consequences, whether to be manifested in this life or the life to come.
  4. We believe in the ultimate triumph of divine mercy and grace: that no being ever created will be condemned or allowed to suffer forever, but God has arranged through a benevolent plan of learning and growth for all souls to attain salvation, reconciliation, restoration, and reunion with the Source of All Being, in the fullness of the ages.
  5. We believe every person is the divine offspring of God, created in the image of the Heavenly Parent of all; and that every person is destined to be raised up from imperfection to maturity according to the pattern of the archetypal Christ, the Son of God, the Perfect Human in whose image all humanity shall be transformed.
  6. We believe in miracles and mysterious spiritual phenomena, such as the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which transcend materialistic views of reality.
  7. We believe that God's Holy Spirit has inspired numerous prophets, saints, philosophers, and mystics throughout history, in a variety of cultures and traditions; and that by reading the Bible and other great texts of spiritual and moral wisdom with a discerning mind, and meditating to connect to the Spirit within, we may all gain a greater understanding of truth, which should be applied for the betterment of ourselves and our world.
Note: In addition, "Members are free to believe whatever they want about other issues, and to interpret our shared beliefs in their own personal way. We do require all members to pledge that they do not endorse any for of hatred based on race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, or disability."

I believe they are preterist in view of the second coming, but I cannot verify that.

I have my own set of beliefs that may or may not fit with the universalist thought but I think if you visit the link I posted you will find most of the answers to what you question. If not, I would be happy to post supporting scripture to what I believe.

Hope this helps!
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Unread 09-11-2009, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
All I can say about that is that He wants a people who do not stand on their own righteousness, yet have the righteousness of Christ - that means an emptying of ourselves, and a filling of Himself. When we die, we are not pure (without mixture) ...
I understand that judgment/the lake of fire/second death (us crucifiying our old man) continually occurs while we are alive on earth...I get that. I understand that believers cannot be hurt by the second death because Jesus walks with us. My question was, does this continue after physical death or are we completely purified and returned to live with Lord forever. Also what is the fate of those who physically die without every turning to the Lord while they are in their physical bodies?

Are you a Preterist?
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Unread 09-11-2009, 12:12 PM
 
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I have a question: when we die and are brought before the lord, will we still have all the carnal thoughts we carried around as baggage down here--bitterness for someone--thoughts of the boy/girl that got away, little envy for the neighbor, etc things we tried to crucify here but still carry deep in our subconscious? I'd just as soon get a brand new personality, as i do not like in any way the one i have right now.
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Unread 09-11-2009, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I have a question: when we die and are brought before the lord, will we still have all the carnal thoughts we carried around as baggage down here--bitterness for someone--thoughts of the boy/girl that got away, little envy for the neighbor, etc things we tried to crucify here but still carry deep in our subconscious? I'd just as soon get a brand new personality, as i do not like in any way the one i have right now.
This is why I said we don't necessarily need to be conscious in an afterlife (in another thread)... Why take all that garbage with us? But then again memory and consciousness do not have to be synonymous.

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Unread 09-11-2009, 12:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I have a question: when we die and are brought before the lord, will we still have all the carnal thoughts we carried around as baggage down here--bitterness for someone--thoughts of the boy/girl that got away, little envy for the neighbor, etc things we tried to crucify here but still carry deep in our subconscious? I'd just as soon get a brand new personality, as i do not like in any way the one i have right now.
This might help:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This sounds like when we are resurrected we are incorruptible - we have been changed, we will no longer have a carnal nature. It says this will happen in the twinkling of an eye. Whether it will take a millisecond or a million years, or whether it will only feel like a millisecond (or a million years)... we will be changed.

We also know we will be changed through fire:
1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


The fire will burn up our works. Our carnal nature will be burned out of us.

Hm... not sure when this all happens, but eventually we will be incorruptible and immortal.

Now the above may only be immediate for the elect... the non-elect may have to go through the lake of fire, which would do the same thing the elect had already went through. BTW the lake of fire probably is the elect (JMHO and current understanding):

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire

1 Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?


Isaiah 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness

(Yes I know Isa 26:10 says the wicked will not learn righteouness from God's grace - that's why God's judgment is needed)

So we know the lake of fire is judgment. God's ministers (the "saints") are a "flaming fire" who will judge the world - and when God's judgments come, the people will learn righteousness. That is the purpose of the elect and God's judgments. So all will learn righteousness and be made righteous. Fits in with Romans 5:

Romans 5:18 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


How this all fits into the timeline of Christ returning, the resurrection, & being made imperishable, I don't know right now; but I believe it could fit into a preterist view.

Peace.
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Unread 09-11-2009, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,847 posts, read 2,744,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
This might help:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This sounds like when we are resurrected we are incorruptible - we have been changed, we will no longer have a carnal nature. It says this will happen in the twinkling of an eye. Whether it will take a millisecond or a million years, or whether it will only feel like a millisecond (or a million years)... we will be changed.

We also know we will be changed through fire:
1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


The fire will burn up our works. Our carnal nature will be burned out of us.

Hm... not sure when this all happens, but eventually we will be incorruptible and immortal.

Now the above may only be immediate for the elect... the non-elect may have to go through the lake of fire, which would do the same thing the elect had already went through. BTW the lake of fire probably is the elect (JMHO and current understanding):

Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire

1 Cor 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?

Isaiah 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness

(Yes I know Isa 26:10 says the wicked will not learn righteouness from God's grace - that's why God's judgment is needed)

So we know the lake of fire is judgment. God's ministers (the "saints") are a "flaming fire" who will judge the world - and when God's judgments come, the people will learn righteousness. That is the purpose of the elect and God's judgments. So all will learn righteousness and be made righteous. Fits in with Romans 5:

Romans 5:18 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

How this all fits into the timeline of Christ returning, the resurrection, & being made imperishable, I don't know right now; but I believe it could fit into a preterist view.

Peace.
Go to Bereanbiblechurch.org and into the studies look at Biblical Eschatology and you will find the answers you are looking for.
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