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Old 09-13-2009, 08:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellafinzi View Post
Was Lucifer (Satan/Devil) the highest angel God created?

Meaning in the hierarchy of the angelic orders, did Lucifer surpass them all when God first created the angels?
Yes. Lucifer was the highest ranking angel before he rebelled against God. Remember that he was able to persuade one third of the angels to rebel with him, and therefore he had to have been in a position of leadership over them. Satan is a cherub. Cherubs have two to four wings. The wings are apparently symbols of rank.

Since the fall of Satan, Seraphim are now a higher ranking angel. They have at least as one of their functions, guarding the throne of God. A function that once belonged to Lucifer. Seraphs have six wings. Again a symbol of rank.

I have provided this website which I hope will be of help to you.

Doctrine of Angels
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Old 09-13-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes. Lucifer was the highest ranking angel before he rebelled against God. Remember that he was able to persuade one third of the angels to rebel with him, and therefore he had to have been in a position of leadership over them. Satan is a cherub. Cherubs have two to four wings. The wings are apparently symbols of rank.

Since the fall of Satan, Seraphim are now a higher ranking angel. They have at least as one of their functions, guarding the throne of God. A function that once belonged to Lucifer. Seraphs have six wings. Again a symbol of rank.

I have provided this website which I hope will be of help to you.

Doctrine of Angels
Who are they guarding the throne of God from?

Is there someone powerful enough to challenge God and win?
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Who are they guarding the throne of God from?

Is there someone powerful enough to challenge God and win?
Perhaps best thought of as in the sense of an Honor guard. Or a position of honor. A ceremonial position. Symbolic. Along those lines. God values His Holiness above all else.
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:32 PM
 
Location: fla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes. Lucifer was the highest ranking angel before he rebelled against God. Remember that he was able to persuade one third of the angels to rebel with him, and therefore he had to have been in a position of leadership over them. Satan is a cherub. Cherubs have two to four wings. The wings are apparently symbols of rank.

Since the fall of Satan, Seraphim are now a higher ranking angel. They have at least as one of their functions, guarding the throne of God. A function that once belonged to Lucifer. Seraphs have six wings. Again a symbol of rank.

I have provided this website which I hope will be of help to you.

Doctrine of Angels
went to a talk given by an exorcist---you are correct--lucifer was a seraphim

Last edited by returningtonepa???; 09-13-2009 at 11:33 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-14-2009, 06:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gone2long View Post
went to a talk given by an exorcist---you are correct--lucifer was a seraphim
I didn't say Lucifer was a Seraph. Lucifer was and is a Cherub. There are now higher ranking angels known as Seraphs.
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Old 09-14-2009, 01:29 PM
 
Location: fla
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I didn't say Lucifer was a Seraph. Lucifer was and is a Cherub. There are now higher ranking angels known as Seraphs.
no---THE EXORCIST PRIEST said lucifer was a seraphim
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:51 PM
 
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Here's what St. Thomas Aquinas says:

Whether the highest angel among those who sinned was the highest of all?

Objection 1: It would seem that the highest among the angels who sinned was not the highest of all. For it is stated (Ezech. 28:14): "Thou wast a cherub stretched out, and protecting, and I set thee in the holy mountain of God." Now the order of the Cherubim is under the order of the Seraphim, as Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. vi, vii). Therefore, the highest angel among those who sinned was not the highest of all.

Objection 2: Further, God made intellectual nature in order that it might attain to beatitude. If therefore the highest of the angels sinned, it follows that the Divine ordinance was frustrated in the noblest creature which is unfitting.

Objection 3: Further, the more a subject is inclined towards anything, so much the less can it fall away from it. But the higher an angel is, so much the more is he inclined towards God. Therefore so much the less can he turn away from God by sinning. And so it seems that the angel who sinned was not the highest of all, but one of the lower angels.

On the contrary, Gregory (Hom. xxxiv in Ev.) says that the chief angel who sinned, "being set over all the hosts of angels, surpassed them in brightness, and was by comparison the most illustrious among them."

I answer that, Two things have to be considered in sin, namely, the proneness to sin, and the motive for sinning. If, then, in the angels we consider the proneness to sin, it seems that the higher angels were less likely to sin than the lower. On this account Damascene says (De Fide Orth. ii), that the highest of those who sinned was set over the terrestrial order. This opinion seems to agree with the view of the Platonists, which Augustine quotes (De Civ. Dei vii, 6,7; x, 9,10,11). For they said that all the gods were good; whereas some of the demons were good, and some bad; naming as 'gods' the intellectual substances which are above the lunar sphere, and calling by the name of "demons" the intellectual substances which are beneath it, yet higher than men in the order of nature. Nor is this opinion to be rejected as contrary to faith; because the whole corporeal creation is governed by God through the angels, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 4,5). Consequently there is nothing to prevent us from saying that the lower angels were divinely set aside for presiding over the lower bodies, the higher over the higher bodies; and the highest to stand before God. And in this sense Damascene says (De Fide Orth. ii) that they who fell were of the lower grade of angels; yet in that order some of them remained good.

But if the motive for sinning be considered, we find that it existed in the higher angels more than in the lower. For, as has been said (A[2]), the demons' sin was pride; and the motive of pride is excellence, which was greater in the higher spirits. Hence Gregory says that he who sinned was the very highest of all. This seems to be the more probable view: because the angels' sin did not come of any proneness, but of free choice alone. Consequently that argument seems to have the more weight which is drawn from the motive in sinning. Yet this must not be prejudicial to the other view; because there might be some motive for sinning in him also who was the chief of the lower angels.

Reply to Objection 1: Cherubim is interpreted "fulness of knowledge," while "Seraphim" means "those who are on fire," or "who set on fire." Consequently Cherubim is derived from knowledge; which is compatible with mortal sin; but Seraphim is derived from the heat of charity, which is incompatible with mortal sin. Therefore the first angel who sinned is called, not a Seraph, but a Cherub.

Reply to Objection 2: The Divine intention is not frustrated either in those who sin, or in those who are saved; for God knows beforehand the end of both; and He procures glory from both, saving these of His goodness, and punishing those of His justice. But the intellectual creature, when it sins, falls away from its due end. Nor is this unfitting in any exalted creature; because the intellectual creature was so made by God, that it lies within its own will to act for its end.

Reply to Objection 3: However great was the inclination towards good in the highest angel, there was no necessity imposed upon him: consequently it was in his power not to follow it.

Summa Theologica: TREATISE ON THE ANGELS (QQ[50]-64): Question. 63 - THE MALICE OF THE ANGELS WITH REGARD TO SIN (NINE ARTICLES)
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Yes. Lucifer was the highest ranking angel before he rebelled against God. Remember that he was able to persuade one third of the angels to rebel with him, and therefore he had to have been in a position of leadership over them. Satan is a cherub. Cherubs have two to four wings. The wings are apparently symbols of rank.

Since the fall of Satan, Seraphim are now a higher ranking angel. They have at least as one of their functions, guarding the throne of God. A function that once belonged to Lucifer. Seraphs have six wings. Again a symbol of rank.
where are these things written in the bible?
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
where are these things written in the bible?
That Satan is a Cherub; Ezekiel 28:14-16. Eze. 28 is addressed both to the King of Tyre and to Satan, with Satan being the power behind the King of Tyre. Verses 12-19, are clearly addressed to Satan.

That Cherubs have four wings; Ezekiel 1:6; 10:21.

Lucifer is the only angel other than the four living creatures/beings mentioned in Revelation 4:6-11 as residing in the Throne room of God. The third Heaven. The rest of the Angels reside in the second Heaven. The stellar universe. They only make it up to the third Heaven for angelic convocations. Job 1:6.
Since his fall, Satan was demoted to the second universe where he divides his time between there and his functions on earth. Luke 4:5,7; John 12:31;
14:30; 16:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Eph. 2:2

Lucifers position, his job, was unique. Ezekiel 28:14 'You are the annointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so; yu were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stone of fire.'

'Annointed' means 'Messianic.' The Messianic Cherub means that he was the honor guard of the Second Person of the Godhead. Satan was appointed to the highest honor a creature could have- the guardian of the throne room. 'That covers' means to 'guard' the throne, 'the holy mountain of God'. As Lucifer, shining in magnificent glory, walked up and down in the presence of God, he was a crown of praise to his creator. (paragraph from Satanic Plot Book 2 by R.B. Thieme, JR.)

That Satan in charge of all the angels. Well, Isaiah 14:13. says that it was Lucifers intention to 'exalt his throne above the stars of God.' The stars of God refers to angels. (Job 38:7; Rev 12:3,4). Satan was expressing his desire to rule over all the angels. Isaiah 14:13-14 describes the five 'I wills' of Satan, which was his moral fall. So although he was in a position of great authority and honor, he apparently was not in charge of all the angels. He had enough influence to convince one third of the angels to side with him in his rebellion. He may not have been in charge of all the angels, but as a Cherub, he was in what apparently was the highest angelic class at that time.

If wings are not a symbol of rank, but perhaps relates to their purpose in serving God, then the Seraphim may have existed before Satan fell. (All the angels were created at one time.) But if wings are a symbol of rank, then it may be that a higher rank (Seraph) was established after the fall of Satan who was a Cherub. [This last preceding paragraph is as far as I know only my own thoughts at the moment. I need more research.]

That Lucifer persuaded one third of the angels to rebel with him. Rev 12:4.

That some Cherubs may have only two wings instead of four. That may not be the case.

Since the Bible is not about angels, but rather is about man's relationship to God, there is not very much mentioned about angels, and so some things pertaining to angels are speculative.

Much of this answer, but not all, is based on ('Satanic Plot' book 2, by R.B. Thieme JR.)

I include again this website for more information on angels in general:

Doctrine of Angels

Last edited by Mike555; 09-15-2009 at 03:13 PM..
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:06 PM
 
Location: fla
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i never read much about angels---my info came from a recent lecture given by a priest that is the exorsist for an entire arch diocese so i would defer to him since he above anyone must deal with satan and his followers on a regular basis!
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