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Old 09-13-2009, 02:49 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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The belief in Annihilation is the belief that God will permanently destroy non-believers - they will cease to exist - eternally dead.

There are couple problems here:

1. Christ came to defeat death; death will have no victory (1 Cor 15:50-58). Death will be the last enemy destroyed (1 Cor 15:25). All will be made alive (1 Cor 15:22) therefore none shall be dead.

2. How does this message fair with a non-believer? Athiests already effectively believe in "annihilation". They believe they will cease to exist after death. Some atheists (not all) figure they can "sin all they want" since this is the only life they've got. However, knowing if they can "sin all they want" and the worst thing that happens is God ultimately will just cause them to "cease to exist" (which is what they believe anyway), doesn't change much for them. Effectively nothing happens to non-believers, they live out their life and eternal death just as expected.
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Old 09-13-2009, 02:59 PM
 
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I firmly believe that God will only accept people who take Jesus Christ as their savior. The end. I believe he can see throw the people who pretend to love Jesus and go home on Sunday after church to sinful lives guided by the devil. You think God is going to let people who hate Heaven inside Heaven? No. It is going to be the most righjous and god bearing people only who praise and love Jesus.
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:22 PM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,538,351 times
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Lego, though I swore I was done with this debate, I just want to throw a thought out there that I've been mulling.

I'm a firm believer in NDE's and the millions of accounts of them that have been recorded, and the tens of thousands that have been authenticated and verified. The experiences recorded of hell used to persuade me heavily on the truth of ET, but lately I've been wondering something. We know that God has two wills, His Secret Will and His Revealed Will. What if the hell experiences people have experienced are part of His revealed will--what awaits the unrepentant sinner, while the Secret Will not revealed is that the souls/spirits suffering there are just there for the "corrective surgery"? In none of the accounts I have read (Mary Baxter Divine Revelation of Hell--23 Minutes in Hell) was there ever any mention of Jesus saying, "You are here for all time without end". Maybe that's part of His Secret Will--not to reveal to a certain select number in the Body that the punishment is of limited duration. Why? Who knows? If God wanted everyone to believe in UR His Spirit would convict everyone of that. But apparently He wants some to believe in ET and others in UR. Proof? Because that's the reality of the situation. But I'm open enough to admit, despite my previous stance for ET and against UR, that UR might indeed be part of God's divine plan and is locked up for some in His Secret Will.
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:38 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,396,883 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
The belief in Annihilation is the belief that God will permanently destroy non-believers - they will cease to exist - eternally dead.

There are couple problems here:

1. Christ came to defeat death; death will have no victory (1 Cor 15:50-58). Death will be the last enemy destroyed (1 Cor 15:25). All will be made alive (1 Cor 15:22) therefore none shall be dead.

2. How does this message fair with a non-believer? Athiests already effectively believe in "annihilation". They believe they will cease to exist after death. Some atheists (not all) figure they can "sin all they want" since this is the only life they've got. However, knowing if they can "sin all they want" and the worst thing that happens is God ultimately will just cause them to "cease to exist" (which is what they believe anyway), doesn't change much for them. Effectively nothing happens to non-believers, they live out their life and eternal death just as expected.
I don't subscribe to the doctrine of annihilation. However, many that do apparently contend that the annihilation event occurs after punishment. They may be inclined to hold this up as refutation to the atheistic view comparison.
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:46 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,402,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Lego, though I swore I was done with this debate, I just want to throw a thought out there that I've been mulling.
LOL this is the only debate that matters you know...

Quote:
I'm a firm believer in NDE's and the millions of accounts of them that have been recorded, and the tens of thousands that have been authenticated and verified. The experiences recorded of hell used to persuade me heavily on the truth of ET, but lately I've been wondering something. We know that God has two wills, His Secret Will and His Revealed Will. What if the hell experiences people have experienced are part of His revealed will--what awaits the unrepentant sinner, while the Secret Will not revealed is that the souls/spirits suffering there are just there for the "corrective surgery"? In none of the accounts I have read (Mary Baxter Divine Revelation of Hell--23 Minutes in Hell) was there ever any mention of Jesus saying, "You are here for all time without end". Maybe that's part of His Secret Will--not to reveal to a certain select number in the Body that the punishment is of limited duration. Why? Who knows? If God wanted everyone to believe in UR His Spirit would convict everyone of that. But apparently He wants some to believe in ET and others in UR. Proof? Because that's the reality of the situation. But I'm open enough to admit, despite my previous stance for ET and against UR, that UR might indeed be part of God's divine plan and is locked up for some in His Secret Will.
Yes, I think you are on the right track regarding the "secret" will vs. "revealed" will. I am a firm believer that NOTHING happens that God doesn't want to happen. That includes many people believing in ET, Annihilation, or nothing at all. A person is an atheist only because God wants that person to be an atheist.

Also, God purposely conceals things so that we will search out the truth. Its part of character development.

Regarding NDEs - yes they do throw a wrench into everything. Some are dreams, some are a view from God, some are a deception from demons. Tough to sort out.
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Old 09-13-2009, 03:57 PM
 
Location: California
87 posts, read 115,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PraiseDaLord View Post
I firmly believe that God will only accept people who take Jesus Christ as their savior. The end. I believe he can see throw the people who pretend to love Jesus and go home on Sunday after church to sinful lives guided by the devil. You think God is going to let people who hate Heaven inside Heaven? No. It is going to be the most righjous and god bearing people only who praise and love Jesus.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (Matthew 5:44)

Wow! Jesus is ordering me to be more loving and merciful than God?

"Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." (Luke 23:34)

Apparently Jesus isn't God.
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:54 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,130,754 times
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It doesn't really matter what one believes while on earth. It's in the spirit world where you will find out what is true or not.
I believe in annihilation because I do know that Lucifer has been annihilated. It doesn't matter if you are a christian, muslim, jew or athiest. It doesn't matter if your a rapist, murder or thief. What matters is the ability to find God within. Those who choose not to find God within, here or there can be annihilated. Even people like Charles Manson could have eternal life even if they wait until the spirit world. It's only up to us to find the God within to save us from our "sins".
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Old 09-14-2009, 03:50 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,138 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend1111 View Post
It doesn't really matter what one believes while on earth. It's in the spirit world where you will find out what is true or not.
I believe in annihilation because I do know that Lucifer has been annihilated. It doesn't matter if you are a christian, muslim, jew or athiest. It doesn't matter if your a rapist, murder or thief. What matters is the ability to find God within. Those who choose not to find God within, here or there can be annihilated. Even people like Charles Manson could have eternal life even if they wait until the spirit world. It's only up to us to find the God within to save us from our "sins".


Rev i respect what you believe but it does matter what we believe on earth because what we believe rules us.
We do not have the ability on our own accord to find God within us, this ability comes from God Himself .
Regarding God saving us from our sins , He shall save His people from their sins . Without the shedding of blood there is no remission from sin , If being saved from our sins depends on us finding God within we are all doomed .
He came to us and made Himself known to us For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
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Old 09-14-2009, 04:36 AM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,443,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

The belief in Annihilation is the belief that God will permanently destroy non-believers - they will cease to exist - eternally dead.

How does this message fair with a non-believer? Athiests already effectively believe in "annihilation". They believe they will cease to exist after death. Some atheists (not all) figure they can "sin all they want" since this is the only life they've got.
"Yes" on the fact that she will just cease to exist after she dies.

"No" on the "sin all I want" part, however. As atheists, we aren't exactly inclined to think in terms of "sin." You're looking at the argument from the context of someone who is a believer, which of course, is fine and makes sense. However, this nonbeliever can tell you that her actions in life are not determined or in any way even remotely related or connected to any thoughts of 'life after death' and how those actions may inpact her once she dies.

-If anything, June would say that for her, the fact that once she is deceased, and 'that's that' would make her time spent while alive that much more meaningful. Atheists make ethical, moral decisions based upon conscience the same way others (even believers) do. -We just think of those decisions in a different context, just as we do what happens after death.

Take gentle care.
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Old 09-14-2009, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 5,130,754 times
Reputation: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Rev i respect what you believe but it does matter what we believe on earth because what we believe rules us.
We do not have the ability on our own accord to find God within us, this ability comes from God Himself .
Regarding God saving us from our sins , He shall save His people from their sins . Without the shedding of blood there is no remission from sin , If being saved from our sins depends on us finding God within we are all doomed .
He came to us and made Himself known to us For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
In our actions does salvation lie and not beliefs. Beliefs are just ideas of salvation. One belief could lead to another and another and another and in the end beliefs are just that. The belief in Jesus' blood is just an idea. The belief in annihilation is just an idea. The belief in what this world is is just the make-up of how people, together, have brought their ideas to fruitation. Ideas aren't truth. God is within. That is truth. Even Jesus told His apostles that when they asked where God is. He told them how to find the God within.
When we truely find God within, that is what saves us from sin. Beliefs don't. How many people do you actually know who are without sin? None or not many. How many people do you know that follow the bible to a tee and are exciting people to be around? Do they enjoy living life to the fullest, even doing something that is inharmony with God but not man? How do you even know that everything in the bible is true if you don't question all that have experienced death? How can you know it's true if you only believe it's true? Even non-believers can find God within and don't even know it. If I need to believe in what a book says about my salvation without going outside of it, I'm just in a rut of ideas that only stagnate my growth. I can't grow because there is a limit to what one book can teach. It cannot go outside of it's own walls to further educate on the real world.
In the real world, the spirit world, those things come to light that we created. The belief in Jesus, blood, annihilation. If you believe in them now, you'll believe them in the spirit world. We are told by Jesus to seek for the things of God. If God is within us, why aren't more people looking within when instead they look in a book? God isn't in there.
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