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Old 09-18-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,148,301 times
Reputation: 776

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Easy, "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God' Rom. 10:17.

But who opens up your ears so you can hear the Gospel and respond?

 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:48 PM
 
159 posts, read 130,353 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
The rich man and Lazarus IS NOT a story about the final destiny of any fallen creature.

“and without a parable spake Jesus not unto them” Matthew 13:34

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/other/abraham.html
and
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Scroll down and click on
THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS




The result of the judgment is kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (age-during corrective chastisement), not eternal hell.

According to the Bible everyone who enters the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
The Lake of Fire: The Prodigal Son; God Gains Attention;The Lake Of Fire;The Second Death;Not Hurt Of The Second Death;Tormented In The Presence Of The Lamb
You use articles and study men's ideas and I will use the bible and study God's. Sorry I am not interested in anything but what God says (no offense).
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:49 PM
 
159 posts, read 130,353 times
Reputation: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
But who opens up your ears so you can hear the Gospel and respond?

Lol what? We decide whether to read the bible or not. God does not "open our ears" lol.
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:50 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,697,731 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
The rich man and Lazarus IS NOT a story about the final destiny of any fallen creature.

“and without a parable spake Jesus not unto them” Matthew 13:34

http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/other/abraham.html
and
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
Scroll down and click on
THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS............
Why do universalist insist that "aionion" cannot mean eternal. I agree it means age but we don't look at the meaning of the word over CONTEXT. "aionion" can mean temporal or forever. Nobody is mistranslating, that is a disingenuous accusation, so the only argument is a contextual argument. Who has the correct context? There is NO mistranslation
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:51 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,437,093 times
Reputation: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Why do universalist insist that "aionion" is not eternal. I agree it means age but we don't look at the meaning of the word over CONTEXT. "aionion" can mean temporal or forever. Nobody is mistranslating, that is a disingenuous accusation, so the only argument is a contextual argument. Who has the correct context? There is NO mistranslation

Agreed!
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:51 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,899,464 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Now Legoman. I hope you are not preying on other's ignorance? (not that I am saying, you are ignorant Dalton) You know that is out of Dante's inferno. Many lacking in knowledge Christians believe that. The answer is we don't know if it is a literal fire or not. I personally don't believe so


Its just a question Fundy. Many people believe it is literal. I used to myself before I thought about it. But the answer is that is very easy to prove that it is spiritual only. This is one of the first hurdles to get over if one wishes to understand UR.

I don't know much about Dalton other than the few posts he posted today. But I know he believes Luke 16 is a literal picture of hell, and was seemingly unaware that there are other interpretations and that it could be a parable.
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:54 PM
 
159 posts, read 130,353 times
Reputation: 28
I believe it is literal and others do not. I guess we will all know sooner or later, lol. Whether it is or not we just need to worry about how we are living and reaching heaven with no punishment.
 
Old 09-18-2009, 04:58 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,697,731 times
Reputation: 726
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post


Its just a question Fundy. Many people believe it is literal. I used to myself before I thought about it. But the answer is that is very easy to prove that it is spiritual only. This is one of the first hurdles to get over if one wishes to understand UR.

I don't know much about Dalton other than the few posts he posted today. But I know he believes Luke 16 is a literal picture of hell, and was seemingly unaware that there are other interpretations and that it could be a parable.
LOL.....Yes I know many Christians do think it is a fiery furnace but Christians who delve deep in the gospel know better. You see you universalist do the same that my Jehovah Witness friend does. You start off small by saying, do you believe this then you totally dismantle infront of the person leading them to think what else do they have wrong? It's brilliant!
 
Old 09-18-2009, 05:00 PM
 
Location: California
87 posts, read 78,748 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
You use articles and study men's ideas and I will use the bible and study God's. Sorry I am not interested in anything but what God says (no offense).
So you read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek? And you ignore 1 Corinthians 7:12? Translations ALWAYS include men's ideas. Where do you think the word Hell comes from? And Paul admits in 1 Corinthians that he does not always speak for the Lord.
 
Old 09-18-2009, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
works Jesus says only those that do his will go to heaven Matt 7:21.
Sooner or later, according to the Bible, everyone will do God's will and go to heaven.

The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All

But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.

You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.

Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God.

There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did.

If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24).

Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).

Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.

So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?

They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).

They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.

Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the (same) many shall be constituted just.

All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)

All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)

All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.

In summary then:

The lake of fire is the second death.

The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.

How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.

In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).

So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.

Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.

The Lake of Fire: The Prodigal Son; God Gains Attention;The Lake Of Fire;The Second Death;Not Hurt Of The Second Death;Tormented In The Presence Of The Lamb

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.

How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteenth chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
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