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Unread 09-22-2009, 09:22 AM
 
8,990 posts, read 7,907,423 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I concede that the subject to which AIÓN & AIÓNIOS are applied may permit them to be used as everlasting.

But I also perceive this "permission" to be coincidental, not deliberate.

e.g. A Lincoln Continental is always a Ford, but a Ford is not always a Lincoln Continental.

In other words, there is no etymological necessity in the word Ford to interpret it to mean Lincoln Continental.

Likewise, there is no etymological necessity in the words aion/aionios to interpret them to mean everlasting.

In fact, this concordance shows why they should always be translated eon, and eonian.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Whoa! there Kemo Sabe of course etymoly is involved and no one is arguing that it should always be translated aionion but we must consider the context of the passage; it can mean both. I believe it means eternal you disagree but again no one in tampering with translation

 
Unread 09-22-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Default Disagreement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
I never argued against it's usage as a limited period of time. What you present here does not prevent it's usage as everlasting.

The issue is that both sides are incorrect in maintaining that it MUST be one or the other in each and every case. Just not true.
We still disagree.

I maintain that God never meant aion and aionios to mean anything but a limited period of time because their translation to English as eon and eonian makes perfect sense in every case.

If God had wanted to get across the idea of everlasting He would have used the word aidios, which the Greek Jews of Jesus life time used to teach eternal torment.
Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Of course everyone will make up their own mind about it based on the convincing strength of whatever sets of influences are being brought to bear upon their mind.

The strongest influences on my mind are contained in these two links.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
and
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

I am very pleased that you believe that the Bible teaches the eventual salvation of all though.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-22-2009 at 10:14 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 11:08 AM
 
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I recently talked with a guy who studies ancient Greek (he's an universalist also), he said aiôn basicaly means lifetime.

It's sometimes argued that Aristotle defined aiôn as eternity, however, Aristotle defined God's aiôn (life) as eternal (aidios) or endless (ateleutêtos), so Aristotle did not consider aiôn to mean eternity, but God's aiôn (life) to be eternal, because God is eternal, a human aiôn of course is finite.

Plato in Timaios might have used aiôn in a philosophical sense of eternity, however even the idea of Plato's eternity need not be understood as endlessness. But I lack the knowledge both of the works of Plato and Greek

eternity is a very philosophic idea/concept, without biblical support

this is pretty interesting:

John Nelson Darby on the subject:

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal

and my attempt to refute him:

Greek EIS TON AIOoNA - what does it mean?

also worth to read:

Whence Eternity?
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 11:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
We still disagree.

I maintain that God never meant aion and aionios to mean anything but a limited period of time because their translation to English as eon and eonian makes perfect sense in every case.

If God had wanted to get across the idea of everlasting He would have used the word aidios, which the Greek Jews of Jesus life time used to teach eternal torment.
Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Of course everyone will make up their own mind about it based on the convincing strength of whatever sets of influences are being brought to bear upon their mind.

The strongest influences on my mind are contained in these two links.
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
and
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

I am very pleased that you believe that the Bible teaches the eventual salvation of all though.
Talk about a strawman. You do realize I am of the Calivinist ilk rather than armenian- I believe in a limited atonement and Jesus saves only those that believe therefore ALL are saved and the debt has been paid in full.

Of course you disagree. You are just being dogmatic about something that could mean different. You universalist can hold on to that lovable, more loving, desirable idea. Knock your pretty lil' heads out but the facts are it can mean both.
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Default Calvinism versus arminianism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Talk about a strawman. You do realize I am of the Calivinist ilk rather than Arminian.

Of course you disagree but if you are not being honest. You are just being dogmatic about something that could mean different. You universalist can hold on to that lovable, more loving, desirable idea. Knoch your pretty lil' heads out.
AMEN, so be it!

CALVINISM VERSUS ARMINIANISM

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?

These two links specifically respond to that question.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
Absolute Assurance
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

Calvinism is a cruel and unloving profanity.

Arminianism is a proud and self-righteous profanity.

Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.

Aminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.

The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either cannot, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.

The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.

A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of universal transformation.

The truth of universal transformation solves all of the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.

Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.

It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace through Christ. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.

God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell." When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.

The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
WHICH VIEW OF SALVATION IS TRUE?
See the above links.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-22-2009 at 11:36 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
AMEN, so be it!

CALVINISM VERSUS ARMINIANISM

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
I see truth in both Calvinism and Arminianism-that it is God's will and man's involved in salvation. Universalism is not Christian. Your fallen understanding is more carnal than the others making statements like, "if God created hell then He would be evil" which is circular logic and self refuting since we are the fallen that His utilmate good is beyond our fallen understanding of good. That God's worse is even eons better than our pure, best goodness.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-22-2009 at 11:54 AM..
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Default The world’s most evil beliefs - imho

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I see truth in both Calvinism and Arminianism-that it is God's will and man's involved in salvation. Universalism is not Christian. Your fallen understanding is more carnal than the others making statements like, "if God created hell then He would be evil" which is circular logic and self refuting since we are the fallen that His utilmate good is beyond our fallen understanding of good. That God's worse is even eons better than our pure, best goodness.
Any "hell" there will be is called kolasis aionion (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." unquote

The supposed “justice” of eternal “hell.”
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

THE WORLD’S MOST EVIL BELIEFS - IMHO

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian eternal tormentor relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love?”

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian) or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!!

Thank God a correctly (literally not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach such insane ideas!

Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google
SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-22-2009 at 12:34 PM.. Reason: spelling
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 12:43 PM
 
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The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment (Barnes)
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment (Barnes)
BARNES' IMPLIED ASSERTION:

If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of the believer come to an end since the word is applied to both the life of the believer, and the punishment of the non-believer?

RESPONSE:

While the believer is enjoying aionion life, the unbeliever will experience kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (which means age-during corrective chastisement).
Chapter Eleven

Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.

Because of the “eonian” nature of God’s revelation, culminating with the consummation of the ages in 1Corinthians 15, we can see that “eonian life” leads into “eternity” at the end of the ages. Therefore there is no real threat to “eternal life,” even though punishment/correction is not eternal, but only for an age.

There are a number of Greek words that imply eternal but aionios is not one of them.
They are usually translated “indestructible,” “imperishable,” “unfading,” “immortality,” and “incorruptible.” Ro. 1:23; 2:7; 1Cor. 9:25; 15:42, 51-54; He. 7:15,16; 1Pe. 1:3,4; 5:4; 1Ti. 1:17; 6:16; 2Ti. 1:10.

Our hope of immortality does not reside in the word aionios, but in God’s very nature (unfailing love and unlimited power) and promises.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-22-2009 at 01:06 PM.. Reason: SPELLING
 
Unread 09-22-2009, 03:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
The original word - αἰώνιον aionion - is employed in the New Testament 66 times. Of these, in 51 instances it is used of the happiness of the righteous; in two, of God’s existence; in six, of the church and the Messiah’s kingdom; and in the remaining seven, of the future punishment of the wicked. If in these seven instances we attach to the word the idea of limited duration, consistency requires that the same idea of limited duration should be given it in the 51 cases of its application to the future glory of the righteous, and the two instances of its application to God’s existence, and the six eases of its appropriation to the future reign of the Messiah and the glory and perpetuity of the church. But no one will presume to deny that in these instances it denotes unlimited duration, and therefore, in accordance with the sound laws of interpretation and of language itself, the same sense of unlimited duration must be given it when used of future punishment (Barnes)
This is a false dichotomy ... The word aion means a period of time in which certain social/cultural or political/spiritual trends persist. To say that the word aion or aionios/aionion means either a limited period of time or eternity is to misunderstand the meaning of the word all together. If the cosmos and time as we know it now which is qualified by the decay of energy is eternal(without beginning or end) as Plato surmised, then the term aion or aionios could be said to carry the meaning of eternity. Aion and aionios do not mean limited time or eternity. They mean only a period of time characterized by a persistent quality. To say that aionios means eternal because it applies to God or the life of the believer or to the kingdom of heaven is to misapply the word. God is eternal, but the word aionios or aion when associated with him refers to the quality of his relationship to his creation and does not signify any aspect of his eternal solitude beyond and outside of his relationship to his creation.



An aion is in every sense of the word, when used within Greek classics, philosophy, and within the new testament, a temporal designation. Like, minuite, hour, day, week, month, year, decade, century, millennium, aeon(aion) ... The only difficulty is the way the word is used in Greek philosophical thought. Plato himself considered the temporal world to be without beginning or end. In the bible this is shown to be a falsehood as Paul clearly states that the aions and time itself are limited. The cosmos as we know it and time which limits it(the cosmos) to cyclical redundancy in the life death and rebirth cycles, is attributed to the existence and persistence of decay/entropy/corruption within the cosmos. The whole creation has been subject to vanity(death/corruption) unwillingly ... i.e death or the decay of spent energy over time due to friction as we understand it today in science. At the consummation of the ages and at the fullness of times, according to the apostle Paul in Ephesians and in Romans, death will be destroyed and the whole creation/cosmos will be set free of the vanity of death and corruption and brought into the liberty and life of the children of God. When this comes to pass, this whole creation which groans for the revelation of the children of God will be set free of its temporal/mortal fate and brought into line with the eternal undying and unchanging God. For now we see only in part as in a mirror, then we shall se face to face knowing even as we are known.

Even science tell us today that our cosmos had a beginning at the big bang. So we know that the cosmos is not eternal in the sense it most certainly had a beginning. So according to Paul, and to modern cosmology, neither time as we know it now, or space(the cosmos) is eternal. And the words which refer to them cannot of themselves be said to represent eternity either.


Ill post a rebuttal to this argument you have presented, which was before presented by Vines ...

Quote:
The Vine's Dictionary Argument
Each of these arguments in favor of "aionios" being "eternal/infinite" will be addressed in detail one by one below. The Vine's Dictionary and Matt Slick argue that aionios must mean eternal because it is used in these ways:

- 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. ‘for a season,' and in
- Philm 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.
- Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom 16:26;
- of His power, 1 Tim 6:16,
- and of His glory, 1 Pet 5:10;
- of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14;
- of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12,
- and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9,
- as well as of His future rule, 2 Pet 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33;
- of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerninng whom He said, ‘they shall never perish,' 10:28,
- and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1,
- elsewhere said to be ‘immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2.
- Aionios is also used of the sin that ‘hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29,
- and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2,
- and. of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be ‘unquenchable,' Mark 9:43.
"

These are the common arguments which we address below in light of aionios' literal meaning of "relating to aion/age":

Rebuttal to the Vine's Dictionary Argument
The predominant meaning of aionios may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,':

First, here is the scripture in question:
2 Cor 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios).
Look closely at this verse. Is Paul really stating a blanket criteria that that nothing eternal can be seen? If "the things which are not seen are eternal," what does that make air? The wind is "not seen" but isn't it also passing with the physical world? And, isn't Jesus Christ the VISIBLE image of the invisible God? Jesus has been "seen," yet he is not passing. At first glance the verse appears to be a contrast between "eternal" and "temporal." That is the mistake the Vine's Dictionary makes. But, as we will see, the contrast Paul is making is between what is "seen" and that which is pertaining to coming ages which are unseen now.

Within the entire chapter of 2 Corinthians 4, we see that Paul is speaking to the afflicted early Christian church who endures much pain for the gospel. Earlier, in verse 8 of this chapter, he assures them: "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair." To reassure them, he says in verse 17: For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (aionios) weight (baros) of glory (doxa);

The Greek phrase "aionios baros doxa" actually means "pertaining to the age, the abundance of glory." Paul notes that coming time in Romans 8:18: "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us."

The "abundance of glory pertaining to the age" is the "abundance of glory revealed in us." With that in mind let us now come to verse 18 which is the verse in question.
2 Cor 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the-things-which-are-seen are temporal; but the-things-which-are-not-seen are eternal (aionios).
First, note that the entire phrase "the-things-which-are-seen" is translated from one Greek word: blepo ("seen"). This is paired with proskairos which means "passing." Literally translated, the phrase reads: "Seen is passing."

Second, note that the the phrase "the-things-which-are-not-seen" is translated from two Greek words blepo me ("not seen"), and it is paired with aionios ("pertaining to the age").

Together the verse reads: "Seen is passing. Not seen, pertaining to the age (aionios)."

Not seen pertaining to what age? Look again at the preceding verse 17: "pertaining to the age, the abundance of glory" (aionios baros doxa). What is not seen, pertains to THAT age. To the church, in Paul's time, what was seen - what was immediate - was persecution. What was seen was great affliction upon them.

Paul reassures them, however, that not only is the affliction they see only passing, but that we must set our eyes on the abundance of glory coming in an age which is not seen: "The glory which shall be revealed in us." This is the "aionios baros doxa" pertaining to that unseen coming age, the abundance of glory to come. The things which are not seen are relating to that future age. To learn more about that coming age of glory, read Few Chosen, a Kingdom Come on this site.


and in Philem. 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun.
" For perhaps he (Onisimus - Philemon's servant) therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him forever (aionios);"

The reason the Vine's dictionary notes the absence of a noun in the above verse is because aionios is commonly an adjective. Therefore, they suggest that freed from a noun, the word would mean forever.

The absence of a noun is immaterial. When an adjective, like aionios, describes a verb, as in Philemon "receiving" Onisimus, it is known as an adverb. Adjectives describe nouns. Adverbs describe verbs. The ACTION of Philemon"receiving" his servant is what is described as "aionios" in the verse. The converse would be "the aionios receiving of Onisimus."

The contrast here is between Philemon losing his servant for a short absence (in Greek it is translated "an hour") and gaining him for the remaining ages to come. The verse is saying: "For perhaps therefore is he separated for an hour, that you may be receiving him regarding the aion/aions." In everyday English it is like saying: "the birds have flown south for a short time, but we will see them again in relation to the coming year.


Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Rom. 16:26;
Here we see the "hasty assumption" fallacy at work. The assumption is that since God is aionios, it must mean eternal since God is also immortal. If you have read to this point, you can see the miscalculation. Again, aionios means neither eternal nor temporary.

In short, He is the aionios God. He is the God relating to the aions he has created, the Rock of Ages. This does not mean that he is only lasting for aions. When Christians sing the hymn "The Rock of Ages" do they mean to say that because he is "of the ages" that God is also ending with them? How absurd. That God is aionios simply means that He relates to the ages he has created. It is a logical blunder to insist that because God is relating to the ages, that this automatically limits Him to their passing nature. In fact, if God was not relating to the ages, there would be no Holy Spirit within us. God would be removed from us in the age of our lives, watching us from the outside, rather than living here within us now by His Spirit. This is addressed in great detail in this paper: Eternal Torment: Godly Love?.


of His power, 1Tim. 6:16,

See above. The "hasty assumption" strikes again. 1Tim.6:16 says ". . . to Whom be honor and might aionios." That God's power and might is shown to be pertaining to the ages, does not mean his glory is temporary, but that it is revealed to man right now in the current and future ages through the Spirit of Jesus Christ. One thing can pertain to another without sharing limitations.


and of His glory, 1Pet. 5:10;
1Pet.5:10 says " . . . Who calls you into His aionios glory in Christ." The glory we will have in Christ is a glory relating to the aions, which ages are now and to come. In this verse the aion-ios glory we are called into, IS that Spirit. Being called into God's glory is obtainable now and to come.


of the Holy Spirit, Heb. 9:14;
Do you see how one logical flaw can propagate itself across interpretations of various scriptures? Here is Heb.9:14: "Who, through the aionios Spirit offers Himself flawless to God." As discussed above and above, and above, the fact that the Spirit is pertaining to the ages, does not mean that it is subject to the limiting nature of time. Does an apple pertain to a tree? Yes. Of course. But that fact does not confine the tree to the characteristics of the apple.


of the redemption effected by Christ, 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9,";
Heb. 9:12, this deals with of the redemption effected by Christ. This is "entered once for all time into the holy place, finding aionios redemption."

The "aionios redemption," as with "aionios life" is the redemption of the aions/ages and the life of the aions/ages. This does not mean that it is temporary, but that it pertains to this present wicked age, and in this wicked age, we are delivered from sin. "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward (wicked) generation." (Act 2:39)

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present AION;" (Titus 2:11-12)

That this redemption is "aionios" speaks to the immediacy of its availability, that we may be taught by the Spirit to be delivered from sin right now. The same is true of "Aionios Life." The Life is the Spirit, which is available now.

For more about this process in greater detail: Just What Happened On That Cross? (The Judgment of the World)


2Pet. 1:11 dealing with his future rule which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33
The Vine's dictionary says: "which is elsewhere declared to be without end." That God's reign is stated to be without end in other places of Scripture has no bearing whatsoever on the meaning of aionios in THIS scripture, just as it would have no bearing as to any other adjectives applied to God, like "good" or "victorious." God is "victorious," He is "good," He is "aionios (pertaining to the ages)" ......AND His reign is without end.

"For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the aionios kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." This aionios kingdom is the kingdom which pertains to the aions, in that this kingdom is like a field which is being grown and harvested right now, in this time today and on this earth. Again, because something is said to pertain to an age, does not limit that something to end with the ages.


John 3:16, of the life received by those who believe in Christ,
More of the "hasty assumption" fallacy. Aionios life is NOT immortality, and attempting to establish torment as infinite based on aionios life is a tragically flawed argument. Jesus Christ is "The way, the truth, and THE LIFE" (John 14:6). As addressed in the paper linked below, Aionios Life is in the Spirit today, and is something that immortality is added to after death. That Life is made available by God to man in THESE present ages and to come, which is what makes it "aionios life." That is what makes it the "Life of the ages" and that is what distinguishes it from immortality.

Here are the facts:

1) Paul distinguishes between life and immortality: 2 Timothy 1:8-11
2) There is a difference between being physically alive and spiritually dead: 1 Timothy 5:6
3) Aionios life is within: 1 John 3:14-17, 1 John 5:20
4) Aionios life is now: 1 Timothy 4:8
5) The Biblical definition of life is to know God: John 17:3
6) Jesus Christ is the life: John 14:6

Read, Eternal Torment: Godly Love? for more in depth examination.


John 10:28, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,'
"And I give unto them aionios life; and they shall never perish (apollumi), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. " Since the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is "aionios life" in Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23). This "aionios life" is freedom from sin, because sin works death. The word "perish" is the same word used to describe the Prodigal Son:

Luk 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apollumi), and is found. And they began to be merry.

When Jesus gives "aionios life," they are no longer lost as was the Prodigal son, we are no longer dead as was the Prodigal son, we are no longer perishing, but we are living in the Life that is in the Spirit, the life of the ages, which are now and to come.


2 Cor. 5:1, and of the resurrection body,
Paul is not saying that the resurrection body that the saints receive is not immortal simply because he also states that it is aionios. It is the purpose of the age that God's glory be revealed through the overcomer. That the resurrection body is aionios is significant - in that the saints will judge the world when they are raised in strength in the glory of the ages to come. Their bodies serve the plan of God who framed the ages for that purpose. Again, read Few Chosen, a Kingdom Come to learn more about this aionios plan. Continued:


elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor. 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2.
It is flawed logic and poor scholarship to insist that if someone lives for the aions AND, has immortality that "aion" means "eternal" for that reason. That someone is both kind and intelligent does not mean that "kind" and "intelligent" have the same meaning.

Likewise, because the resurrection body is ELSEWHERE said to be immortal has no bearing on the meaning of aionios in THIS verse. That simply shows that the resurrection body will be glorified pertaining to the age to come .... AND is also immortal. For the difference between aionios life and immortality read Eternal Torment: Godly Love?.


Mark 3:29, "Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)
Most Christians are aware of an "unforgivable sin," which is the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. You may be interested to know that "unforgivable sin" is not a scriptural term. You will not find that term in the Bible at all. Regarding the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, let us look closer at Mark:39. The literal translation from the Greek text reads: "Whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the aion, but is liable to the aionios penalty for the sin" (Mk.3:29).

In the above verse, the translators omitted"aion" in this phrase "echo ou aphesis eis aion." It actually means "Has not forgiveness for the age." Instead they translated the phrase: "hath never forgiveness." Convenient, huh? It seems this did not fit into an already established doctrine of "eternal damnation," so rather than giving us a straightforward rendition - including a correctly translated "aion" - we got a doctrinally slanted version which ignores the word "aion" entirely. They just stripped it clean out. Seems like the translators were thinking for us, rather than simply translating.

Interestingly enough, this demonstrates that the sin of blaspheming the Spirit is not infinitely unforgiven. God says that "Love does not keep a record of having been wronged" (1 Corinthians 13:4-5) The time limit on it being unforgiven is for an aion, and the danger is of aion-ios penalty. Therefore, the blasphemers are in danger of the penalty pertaining to that age. See below.


Heb. 6:2, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal,
We already know that God's judgments are without appeal. But, as scripture reveals below, they end when God's purpose is accomplished. God's judgments are without appeal not because they last forever, but because they must last until God has finished, according to his wisdom, and not man's wisdom: "The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).

The judgments of God are aionios. They occur until God is done and His will is accomplished, because God has appointed an aion for aionios judgment and the purpose FOR that judgment is the finishing of God's plans. Proponents of Eternal Torment insist that God's plans will never be finished since his final judgment will last forever. "As I live, says the Lord God, I have no desire for the death of the wicked." (Ezekiel 33:11)


and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matt. 18:8; Matt. 25:41; Jude 1:7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,'
See above. Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans."

Secondly, remember the "elsewhere" fallacy: because the fire is ELSEWHERE said to be not be quenched has no bearing on the meaning of aionios. That is slippery reasoning. Even orthodox Christians would admit that God's judgments PERTAIN to the day he has appointed for judgment. The fire is not quenched because it fulfills God's plan of the ages, which have not yet passed.
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