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Old 09-23-2009, 04:49 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,439,367 times
Reputation: 216
Default The ET v UR debate - "My Greek scholars versus yours"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Perhaps that is the question that should of been asked rather than forming a conclusion that does not actually prove anything concerning UR.
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ET versus UR.

The argument about “eternal hell” versus universal reconciliation nearly always gets bogged down with the words,
“My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER at
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Each person will decide, hopefully after examining the evidence for themselves, not just because of what their pastor or Bible school taught them.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible for you to believe that.

On one post, I think it was legoman who asked me, "Why do some people seemingly WANT to keep believing in an endless hell?"

I like what my hero, Ray Prinzing said about that attitude.
He said, "It is God who chooses the false doctrines in which we get involved, and it is also God Who decides how long we stay in them."

Ray Prinzing was a firm believer in the sovereignty of God and His intention to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it temporarily prevailed for all fallen creatures because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

Ray Prinzing has passed on now, but all of his writings can be Googled up on the internet.

Had it not been for my listening to his many tapes over a period of twelve years (1966-78), I probably would be dead now due to suicide, or at least locked away permanently in a mental hospital.
I'm now 70 years old.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-23-2009 at 04:52 AM.. Reason: highlighting

 
Old 09-24-2009, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,439,367 times
Reputation: 216
Default Kolasis aionian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You know, I'm sorry if I get a little frustrated. I'm not upset, just a little incredulous about the whole conversation. It is as if people are not even reading what Rodger and I are presenting. It's as if they just brush it off and then continue to make the same arguments. To me saying that aion can mean eternal is like saying century or day can mean eternal. The only way those words can mean eternal is in abstraction. If you want to understand the word aion in an abstract way, fine, but you can't tell me the word means eternal in any other way. It is a temporal designation. That is the argument. And the adjectives are as well. When referring to God they refer to his temporal relations to the world, and not as an abstraction referring to his eternal nature.
A compelling argument for me that strengthens the meaning of aionios is the meaning of kolasis.
I have never heard an ETer even try to refute Greek scholar, William Barclay's following observation about Matthew 25:46.

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." unquote

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-24-2009 at 04:47 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 09-24-2009, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
A compelling argument for me that strengthens the meaning of aionios is the meaning of kolasis.
I have never heard an ETer even try to refute Greek scholar, William Barclay's following observation about Matthew 25:46.

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure." unquote
That being said... can one make a case for eternal correction? or does the correction always result in a cure?
 
Old 09-24-2009, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,439,367 times
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Default The effectiveness of god's judgements

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That being said... can one make a case for eternal correction? or does the correction always result in a cure?
If a malady (in this case, sinfulness) is corrected, is it not also "cured?'

I think that, unlike humans, with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
Just What Do You Mean...THE JUDGMENT! Past Times Of Judgment; Future Times Of Destructive Judgment; Judgments Of The Believer; The Nature Of Judgment; The Judgment Of The Nations; God's Purpose For The Church; Judgment And Restoration Of The Nations;

I believe that God the "Judge," has the desire, the ability, and the determination, to sooner or later, successfully save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL - first the firstfruits of election, chosen out of each generation, then later, all the rest of the fallen creatures.
God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
 
Old 09-24-2009, 02:36 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,173,080 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
That being said... can one make a case for eternal correction? or does the correction always result in a cure?

No, the case for everlasting correction cannot be made. But God's corrective nature indeed is.

One proper context of the meaning everlasting would be that to us we may think it will never end, we cannot perceive how long it will take, it will seem like forever and OUR mind will capture upon the frozen aspect of time when something undesirable is taking place. 10 seconds is nothing, now, turn on your radio and listen to a monotone preacher talking about atheists for 10 seconds and then tell me 10 seocnds is not a long time. Either that or hold your hand directly in a blow torch flame for 10 seconds.

While the debate over the meaning of this word continues, if I am the only one who was helped by this context, then so be it.

I am in the middle of a trial right now, brought about by my own complacency. By some peoples arguments if they thought the logic out, I have awakened to everlasting punishment. But I know that it is only how it seems. This actually has strengthened me to care to make my error right because I know that my correction will last as long as it takes for me to pay the penalty (consequenses) for my mistake.

It brings hope that correction as painful as it may be, is not forever, it is the way of God.
 
Old 09-24-2009, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
No, the case for everlasting correction cannot be made. But God's corrective nature indeed is.

One proper context of the meaning everlasting would be that to us we may think it will never end, we cannot perceive how long it will take, it will seem like forever and OUR mind will capture upon the frozen aspect of time when something undesirable is taking place. 10 seconds is nothing, now, turn on your radio and listen to a monotone preacher talking about atheists for 10 seconds and then tell me 10 seocnds is not a long time. Either that or hold your hand directly in a blow torch flame for 10 seconds.
I have experienced the first one and 10 seconds was a long time but the blow torch...well 10 seconds and your hand would still be hurting months later!

Quote:
While the debate over the meaning of this word continues, if I am the only one who was helped by this context, then so be it.
I am in 100% agreement with you about the translation of eternal and punishment. It is punishment for correction that is present in our lives today. It is eternal only in the sense that it takes forever. We are so darn hard-headed!

Quote:
I am in the middle of a trial right now, brought about by my own complacency. By some peoples arguments if they thought the logic out, I have awakened to everlasting punishment. But I know that it is only how it seems. This actually has strengthened me to care to make my error right because I know that my correction will last as long as it takes for me to pay the penalty (consequenses) for my mistake.

It brings hope that correction as painful as it may be, is not forever, it is the way of God.
And this is where the true heart of Christ shines through. When someone is being corrected, some would look down at them for their mistake, but we have all made mistakes and been corrected/punished. There should be no stigma... you know?

In fact it is those who have been through trials who can teach others how to avoid them.

I differ from you in that I believe that Christ was 100% human and yet achieved a sinless life through the power of the Holy Spirit. Christ's mind and heart were never diverted from God. Therefore when we say that we cannot be sinless because Christ was the only perfect one... that is a lie. We CAN and are TOLD to "sin no more." However, we screw up all the time. Does one think that all sins are counted against us? If we step on an ant is that a sin cuz we committed murder?

The only thing I am commanded to do is love God and love my neighbor as myself... all the other stuff just follows.

It is when we take our eyes off God that we revert back to our sins. And usually it is guilt that leads the way. If we are saved from the death of sin then there is no guilt. Jesus paved the way and we need to follow it AND we can stop to smell the roses.
 
Old 09-24-2009, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,405,403 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
If a malady (in this case, sinfulness) is corrected, is it not also "cured?'

I think that, unlike humans, with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
Just What Do You Mean...THE JUDGMENT! Past Times Of Judgment; Future Times Of Destructive Judgment; Judgments Of The Believer; The Nature Of Judgment; The Judgment Of The Nations; God's Purpose For The Church; Judgment And Restoration Of The Nations;

I believe that God the "Judge," has the desire, the ability, and the determination, to sooner or later, successfully save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL - first the firstfruits of election, chosen out of each generation, then later, all the rest of the fallen creatures.
God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All
Yes I agree... Sin is "cured" just as Jesus healed the sick from there sins. Reminds me of all the times I was given the Pilgrim's Progress to read....some people can read that and still pick up there burdens....and condemn others to their own eternal damnation.
 
Old 09-25-2009, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,439,367 times
Reputation: 216
Default Consequenses of eternal damnation thinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yes I agree... Sin is "cured" just as Jesus healed the sick from there sins. Reminds me of all the times I was given the Pilgrim's Progress to read....some people can read that and still pick up their burdens....and condemn others to their own eternal damnation.
Here are many examples of the results of eternal damnation thinking.
Fruit from the Teaching of Hell
 
Old 09-25-2009, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,439,367 times
Reputation: 216
Default What god wants to acheive will occur

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
No, the case for everlasting correction cannot be made. But God's corrective nature indeed is everlasting.

I am in the middle of a trial right now, brought about by my own complacency. By some peoples arguments if they thought the logic out, I have awakened to everlasting punishment. But I know that it is only how it seems. This actually has strengthened me to care to make my error right because I know that my correction will last as long as it takes for me to pay the penalty (consequenses) for my mistake.

It brings hope that correction as painful as it may be, is not forever, and is the way of God.
Phazelwood, I have confidence that God will grant you strength and bring you through your trial with an even greater sense of His personal care for you.

“Cast all your care upon Him (Jesus), for He cares for you. 1Peter 5:7

I think a good way to look at it Phazelwood is to perceive that the results of correction will be everlasting. Otherwise why would it be called age-during corrective chastisement (kolasis aionon) if it didn't actually achieve correction? When God administers correction, are we to suppose that our corrupt sinful wills can prevent God from successfully achieving correction?

Similary, 1John 4:14 says that God sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. I find it impossible to believe that Jesus will say to His Father, "Well, I went down there and I offered them salvation but their wills were just too strong so I was only able to achieve a fraction of the task that You sent me to do. Sorry!
 
Old 09-25-2009, 09:06 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,173,080 times
Reputation: 628
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I think a good way to look at it Phazelwood is to perceive that the results of correction will be everlasting.
Thanks for your encouragment, I agree with the above.
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