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NO, I won't give Satan any credit!!
It is the individuals choice to walk away from Jesus and His truth! The person choses to listen to their sin of unbelief, doubting the Scripture and God's Holy Spirit!
It is your choice Rodger and others to why you walked away......not Satan fault! Can't blame no one but yourselves!
And when people stop pointing the finger at other things, people and take the responsibility of their sin then will the hearts be changed!
So you don't believe that Satan deceives the whole world, and that it is only God who can open someones eyes, and that someone can only come to God when God drags them?
It sounds like you believe it is your own free will that saves you, not God. It sounds like you think people should be aware of when they are deceived. But that is the nature of deception. If you are deceived, you don't know it!!!!
I've never believed in ET/Hell just due to the translations of eternal, everlasting,sheol and hades and the way they were translated from the Hebrew to Greek. The original Hebrew never had the meaning that we give it today. And I have never believed in the concept of "Hell" as it is taught today. It clearly says that death and hell "Hades" are thrown into the lake of fire and to equate those two things as the same place is not biblically correct. How can you throw hell into hell...not real sensible.
With that said, I am still on the fence with annihilationism, but heavily leaning toward UR, only due to the fact that if we can't come to God until He calls us (1 Cor 2:14, Jn 6:44, Jn 3:3-8, Rom 8:28-30, etc...) why would he let so many, that He chooses not to call, just die. This is what I am facing and studying right now. I know that the judgment/lake of fire/second death are things that believers face while living and possibly will continue after death in some form because we have to be purified before we can stand before the Lord and we know that the second death has no power over us nor can it hurt us because Jesus is with us...the scripture is pretty clear about that and there are several scriptures stating we will be salted with fire. But, what does that mean for unbelievers who are not called by God...do they then face these things after death and are purified and redeemed then? It's a slippery slope to say we know for sure because we really don't and I hate to put something out there that is not 100% accurate. If God uses a person for evil purposes during his lifetime (like He did Pharoah), I have to believe He has a plan so that those He does not call may be redeemed also...it just falls more in line with who God is, His mercy and His justice and why He sent His son to begin with.
Bravo ChristyGirl! This statement says volumes:
why would he let so many, that He chooses not to call, just die
Especially when the purpose (at least one of them) of Christ coming was to defeat and destroy death! Destroying death has many implications, not the least of which is that no one will die, and no one will be dead -> therefore all will be alive, so how can God leave some to just die? Will Christ be a failure in defeating death?
Death is the last enemy defeated. When this is achieved, there will be no more enemies. Period.
I think it's very interesting that although all URs started out as ETers, I have never heard of a UR becoming an ETer AFTER being aware of the evidence that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Just to note: I was never an ETer. I just didn't accept the Christian conception of God at all when I thought it meant eternal torment. The idea was too ridiculous to me the way it made God into a mob boss making an offer you couldn't refuse. Right before I became Christian I didn't have a religion. Then I decided to sit down and read the Bible for reasons of cultural literacy rather than religion. By the time I got through the gospels I was a convinced Christian and automatically believed in UR because that's what made sense with what I was reading. At first it was largely an intuition and logical inference based on Jesus' character (he forgave his enemies but God tortured them? Once you accept Jesus is God this doesn't fly). The more I read, though, the more convinced I became.
Question for ETers: Why do you believe that God became less merciful after Jesus? In the old testament people died and they weren't tortured forever (show me an old testament passage that says eternal torment). Why do you believe God suddenly changed the rules and made the default torture? Did he develop a taste for hurting people or what?
NO, I won't give Satan any credit!!
It is the individuals choice to walk away from Jesus and His truth! The person choses to listen to their sin of unbelief, doubting the Scripture and God's Holy Spirit!
It is your choice Rodger and others to why you walked away......not Satan fault! Can't blame no one but yourselves!
And when people stop pointing the finger at other things, people and take the responsibility of their sin, only then will the hearts be changed!
I have no problem with a God who can send some or most of humanity to eternal hell
That should have read, "I have no problem with "loving" a God who can send some or most of humanity to an eternal hell." Being terrified, suffering, depression, even coming unhinged over the loss of salvation of others demonstrates a profound lack of faith of God, more specifically a lack of faith in His power to be able to administer perfect justice to every individual. When a person trusts that they, their family members, their friends, their acquaintances and strangers will received a reward or punishment perfectly commensurate and balanced with their deeds here in this life, then that person is at total peace with himself, with God and with the world. It's faith in the perfect justice of God that brings peace, and that kind of faith is just as important in God's eyes as faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of one's sins. Many ask silly questions like "How can you be happy in heaven as you look down and see your loved ones burning in a fiery hell." Doesn't Mark 12:24 make abundantly clear the fact that in the afterlife their entire perspective of loved ones will have changed--that earthly mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters will no longer be recognized as such in heaven; that we'll all be equal members of the family of God without titles or distinctions? Faith in God's perfect justice removes all tendencies, inclinations, to worry about the fate of mankind, leaving all that in the very capable hands of God.
I leave it up to God's sovereignty when it pertains to justification for eternal torment in hell. Who am I to question God. Questioning in my opinion is man trying to appeal to their carnal nature. If I say and trust emphatically that only God is love, good etc... then without God I am not good nor do I know right so if I am questioning God in that manner then that is illogical because questioning will show I am apart from God therefore I will be wrong in my questioning and my analysis of God and His ways. How can I question good if I don't know what is good.
You don't know what good is? Have you even had a fine cut of steak or a vintage wine? Now that's good. I'll tell you what is not good in my opinion and that is your reply. It sounds like a cop out to me.
But the Bible doesn't say I'm to trust God's justice in eternal condemnation. It says I'm to trust God as the savior of all, which I do:
"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10
The Bible also says that God's mercy is part of his justice:
"And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him." Isaiah 30:18
God's perfect justice removes all tendencies, inclinations, to worry about the fate of mankind, leaving all that in the very capable hands of God.
That is exactly what we URs believe too!
And we also believe that according to a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible, the doctrine of endless-suffering for anyone cannot be perceived as "perfect justice" for any of God's fallen creatures, not even by any stretch of the imagination.
So you don't believe that Satan deceives the whole world, and that it is only God who can open someones eyes, and that someone can only come to God when God drags them?
It sounds like you believe it is your own free will that saves you, not God. It sounds like you think people should be aware of when they are deceived. But that is the nature of deception. If you are deceived, you don't know it!!!!
Legoman....Did you not choose to post this? Or did God take your fingers and make you type this post? Or is it just an illusion, deception that you have no control over?
No, sin deceives the world! God grace saves the individual from their sin through Jesus Christ. People choose and like to listen to the lies of Satan and remain in their sin!!
God's grace through His Holy Spirit opened the Scripture showing me of my sin. I believe Him about this sin.....WHY? Because what He showed me I was doing and what He revealed to me proved what I was doing was sinful.......
Then because of what He was revealing to me through His word...... I acknowledged my sin and took the responsibility that what I was doing in my life was sinful. Satan didn't make me do it, nobody made me do it, I consciously chose to live a life of sin and unbelief.
And the Lord God came to me and gave me the choice to repent and turn away from that life darken with my sin of making my own choices, walking independent of God and received His forgiveness through His precious Son's Jesus Christ' perfect gift.
That gift was His blood shed on the cross paying for all, all that sin which was in my heart and life. I know with all my heart I would not or could not pay that debt for what I was doing that was being reveal to me through His word.
And every day since I make the conscious choice to trust, honor, reverence, follow, obey, serve in the faith He gives me the moment my eyes open for that day....
Quote:
If you are deceived, you don't know it!!
BUT WHEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE SAVED, YOU KNOW IT!!!
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 09-15-2009 at 10:35 AM..
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The purpose of god's judgments
