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No kidding, how can you eternally condemn me if your belief system states there is no hell? The bible states what your fate is, I am merely showing you verses that prove universalism is wrong. You can take that however you wish but I assume you will ignore it, like other universalists, because it doesnt fit your agenda for the easy and perfect religion. I've shown with the bible how your religion is heresy, you continue to believe anyhow, I have nothing else to say to you because its a waste of time. I was however hoping you would talk like a real person instead of just quoting some stuff.
TALKING LIKE A REAL PERSON ABOUT HELL Real people present evidence. And here is mine.
You are making the same mistake that most ETers make.
Bible believing URs never say "there is no hell."
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement. Chapter Eleven
TALKING LIKE A REAL PERSON ABOUT HELL Real people present evidence. And here is mine.
You are making the same mistake that most ETers make.
Bible believing URs never say "there is no hell."
Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement. Chapter Eleven
Just to clarify... I have said there is no Hell... There are words translated as hell but the fiery place of torment according the Christians does not exist. When I use the word hell, though, it is the fiery place of torment kind. So although I don't believe it exists I do believe in the existence of the places transliterated as "hell".
Also, I just came across as secular study of the word hell and it's origins so perhaps the transliteration is correct but the adaptation of the word to modern views of fiery torment are false. I had to add that in reviewing the website it seems to just have a collection of information which seems to be a collage of lots of stuff and lots of writers.
WHERE DOES THE WORD HELL COME FROM?
Webster's Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under "Hell"
says: "from 'helan' to conceal." The word "hell" thus originally conveyed
no thought of heat or torment but simply of a 'covered over or concealed
place.' In the old English dialect the expression "helling potatoes" meant,
not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a
cellar.
Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol 12, p.28) says concerning "Hell":
First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek
Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in the Old Testament
times refered simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral
distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy
translation."
The meaning given today to the word "hell" is that portrayed in Dante's
Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely
foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a "hell" of firey
torment, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grollier Universal
Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9,p.205) under "Hell" says: "Hindus and Buddhists
regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.
Islamic tradition considers it as a place of eternal punishment." The idea
of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of
ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs
depicted the "nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided
over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness." Although ancient
Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual
victim would go on forever, they do portray the "other world" as featuring
"pits of fire" for "the damned."--The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by
Morris Jastrow, Jr. 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, 1960, pp. 135-200.
"Hellfire" has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries,
it is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol XIV,p.81)
said:"Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused by the early
translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the
Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of
these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not
sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception."
Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the
Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these
original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at an
understanding of their true significance."
Last edited by katjonjj; 10-02-2009 at 11:18 AM..
Reason: added info about the website linked
I'm not sure where people get this eternal condemnation for altering the book. Can you give me a reference to that?
So in your opinion are self-help books evil or what? You aren't talking about regular books right? I mean do you think it is dangerous to read a history book?
Personally, I think you reject christianity for the very reasons URers have... it doesn't make sense with all that hell-fire mumbo jumbo.
There are several posts of yours filled with animosity and phrases like "how stupid their belief system is" and also several posts from self-proclaimed "true" christians with attitude similar to yours. This is just plain humanity, not true of only universalists.
I think my biggest question for you is why you feel so strongly about this. I mean if you were assured of you salvation and came trying to debunk universalism, I could see why, but it seems you have no motive to even respond. Perhaps you could explain to me why you who reject christianity are motivated to uphold the hell-fire view when it is you they say is going to hell.
BTW-any good scholar knows that the "dante's inferno" type of hell is never discussed in the bible. Hades, Sheol, tartarus, and the valley of Hinnom are all erroneously transliterated as hell. The hebrew tanakh is the basis for the bible OT and NT that we have today, yet:
"There is nothing in Hebrew Scripture explicitly mentioning a Lake of Fire or any other form of eternal punishment. Reward and punishment in the Tanakh is usually focused on the nation of Israel as a whole, rather than on the destiny of individual souls.. When Israel was obedient, the nation would possess the land and prosper in it. If not, they would be removed from it for a time, and eventually be restored. This policy is laid down in Deuteronomy 28 and played out in the prophets and historical books. There are occasional hints of an afterlife, such as David's remark after the death of his infant child (2 Samuel 12:23), or Job's proclamation, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and I will see him in the last day." (Job 19:25) " Does it say anything in the Tanach about the Lake of Fire? and How long is forever? (http://www.amfi.org/mailbag/eternalhell.htm - broken link) a website for Jesus believing Jews.
That said it is those who believe in an eternal hell-fire afterlife that are taking men's traditions and adding them to the bible.
I already showed it, but apparently you didnt read the bible verses or already blocked it out.
Galations 1:6-9 NIV
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Altering the gospel is the same meaning as the bible and it says eternal condemnation. Thats bad.
I never said I reject chrisianity, I said universalism is wrong. You're putting words in my mouth. You're also taking it too far by saying you shouldnt read history books and trying to use logic of men instead of the bible. You are once again seeking wisdom of men instead of the bible. The bible says you are wrong and you are disputing it. Thats technically heresy. These verses here say to put your faith in God and his word, not men. It also says the word of God is from God, not men and that it is perfect. To say otherwise is slander against the bible.
1 Corinthians 2:5 NIV
"so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power."
2 Timothy 3:15-17 NIV
"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Peter 1:20,21 NIV
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Hewbrews 4:12 NIV
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
2 Samuel 22:31 NIV
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
You cant argue those bible verses without going outside the bible for information which makes your viewpoint wrong. Its not christianity.
Well, this argument doesn't hold up. Context and usage determines the meaning behind what you are reading. Upon discovery of the ancient texts it was realized that there was NO culture on earth that spoke either language fluently and the culture of the time was gone as well.
Translation is the only way ANYONE knows what they are reading, so there is NO flawless representation of Gods word on earth and NO ONE speaks inherant ancient greek and Hebrew without that translative factor present.
Well then we have a different premise. If what has been handed down is wrong, then there actually isn't any premise that could state anyone in the modern age could be condemned.
If I am told something based on a flawed representation and I reject it, then I am not held responsible. Universalism cannot be rightly condemned under such circumstances. In fact, the one claiming I am condemned coming from the premise of something that is flawed but it cannot be known for sure, then even that person has not intentionall altered anything and not guilty.
Upon discovering the original texts, no one knew what they said, did the translators know it was Gods word till they were done translating? There is no perfetc translations and all knowledge of what the ancient texts say is based ONLY upon translation.
So your premise is flawed anyway you want to look at it. If universalsism is flawed so is every other belief based upon what we know today to be the bible.
That may be, but then we are back to the premise, some translations do not speak of hell or eternal damnation. To say that they are not correct based upon "knowing" ancient hebrew or greek is a false argument, because it is the context in which it was translated that caused the selection of the translated word. Translation is the only way anyone on earth can say what it says.
No, it doesn't because your argument is flawed from the start.
Then you are spreading one too when you say that universalism teaches that you can murder and it's all ok. You are simply wrong.
No, because it is impossible to based a perfect argument on a physically flawed premise.
Sure it does, if you are a Christian in disguise you are bearing a false witness so the premise behind your arguments can be flawed as well which will cause a flaw in your interptetations.
You already have a flawed premise towards universalism in the first place. If you believe universalism is false, then are you talking about Christian Universalism or unitarian Universalism. Either one does NOT teach murder is ok so you have already started off wrong in your premise.
No, there are translations that do not even contain the word HELL you are already flawed about what you think it means to "know" Ancient Hebrew and Greek and if you think that "knowing" it in the way you talk would mean "hell" is a proper word then your ideaology can be written off entirely because you have no clue of what your talking about.
That would just be in the facts, not unsubstantiated.
Thats because you're listening to my words instead of reading the easy, simple to understand bible passages and are using the logic of men, not of God as the bible says to not do. You can not argue your way out of those bible passages. You are blatantly ignoring them and saying the whole argument is irrelevant and that means you are saying the bible is irrelevant. That is heresy and not of christianity and you shouldnt be preaching view points outside of the bible from uninspired men. I cant make this any more clear to you because you arent reading and comprehending the bible passages. Your attempting to use faulty logic and slander to push your biased views on shaping God's teaching to your own understanding...it doesnt work that way. I can post those verses until I'm blue in the face but you simply refuse to understand them. This is the easiest I can possibly make it.
2 Peter 1:20,21 NIV
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
The bible was written by God through man using the Holy Spirit. True or false? True, God is the author.
2 Samuel 22:31 NIV
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
If that verse says the bible is flawless and perfect, which it does, you either have to take it at face value or drop the entire book and declare your beliefs as something outside the gospel and as such are subject to punishment of eternal condemnation. Let me post this verse again since you have such a hard time figuring it out. Here is what the bible says about people teaching a gospel outside of the bible.
Galations 1:6-9 NIV
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
You can't argue those bible verses without going outside the bible for information which makes your viewpoint wrong. Its not christianity.
The outside information proves that many Bible versions are mistranslated, and also proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
I have a document containing several dozen links proving the KJV and similar versions are interpretively translated, instead of literally translated.
Literally translated Bibles teach universal salvation, which was believed by the Christains closest to the time of Jesus for hundred of years until the controlling ecclesiastical bigwigs decided to change the meaning of words. The Salvation Conspiracy: How Hell Became Eternal Whence Eternity? How Eternity Slipped In by Alexander Thomson
The Church Fathers Testify To The Ultimate Triumph Of Jesus Christ. (http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm - broken link)
The outside information proves that many Bible versions are mistranslated, and also proves that the Bible teaches universal salvation.
Outside information. Are you reading what you're saying...its just that...OUTSIDE INFORMATION. Logic of men, not of God. You are using sources outside the bible and are subject to heresy. I am not making this stuff up, you are simply ignoring the bible.
Outside information. Are you reading what you're saying...its just that...OUTSIDE INFORMATION. Logic of men, not of God. You are using sources outside the bible and are subject to heresy. I am not making this stuff up, you are simply ignoring the bible.
No, we are believing the Bible.
We are ignoring corrupted versions of the Bible.
Thats because you're listening to my words instead of reading the easy, simple to understand bible passages and are using the logic of men, not of God as the bible says to not do.
You are the one talking and basing your argument on a false premise.
Quote:
You can not argue your way out of those bible passages. You are blatantly ignoring them and saying the whole argument is irrelevant and that means you are saying the bible is irrelevant.
I already have shown your points to be false. YOUR premise that I am ignoring easy to read bible passages is flawed, because it is NOT about "easy to read" bible passages. It is about what you claim they say. What you say they say is based upon something that is false.
Quote:
That is heresy and not of christianity and you shouldnt be preaching view points outside of the bible from uninspired men. I cant make this any more clear to you because you arent reading and comprehending the bible passages. Your attempting to use faulty logic and slander to push your biased views on shaping God's teaching to your own understanding...it doesnt work that way. I can post those verses until I'm blue in the face but you simply refuse to understand them. This is the easiest I can possibly make it.
Again a false premise. You believe that pointing out the flaws in your arguments is slander. The only thing substantial you have done is proven that you can present yourself as an unbeliever, speak with misreprentations and you can get a good percentage of christians to follow you.
I already showed it, but apparently you didnt read the bible verses or already blocked it out.
Galations 1:6-9 NIV
The problem that I have with seeing the point you are trying to make regarding eternal damnation in these verses is that the whole letter to the Galatians was written for a specific purpose. The other gospel Paul is talking about is given in the text. The other gospel is that which forces Gentiles to obey Jewish customs and law. Paul publicly rebukes Cephas for tell Gentile converts to obey Mosaic law in:
Gal. 2: 12-14
When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all,"You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
The other gospel has nothing to do with eternal damnation or universal reconciliation/salvation. It is about following the Mosaic law and customs of the Jews. It would be more appropriate to say that Christians who follow the Mosaic law and other Jewish customs are hypocrites and are following "another gospel."
Again, in plain reading of the letter to the Galatians, one can see that this does not say if you change the bible you are eternally damned but if you say that someone must follow the Mosaic law and Jewish customs you are eternally damned.
Quote:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Altering the gospel is the same meaning as the bible and it says eternal condemnation. Thats bad.
As I proved without a shadow of a doubt, there is no connection between altering the gospel and eternal damnation. It is forcing others to follow Jewish customs and Mosaic law that is altering the gospel. All you have to do is read the surrounding text.
And what is especially damning to people who tell believers to observe the Mosaic law and Jewish customs is that Paul is angry. He considers this a seriously huge deal.
Quote:
I never said I reject chrisianity, I said universalism is wrong. You're putting words in my mouth. You're also taking it too far by saying you shouldnt read history books and trying to use logic of men instead of the bible. You are once again seeking wisdom of men instead of the bible. The bible says you are wrong and you are disputing it. Thats technically heresy. These vereses here say to put your faith in God and his word, not men. It also says the word of God is from God, not men and that it is perfect. To say otherwise is slander against the bible.
This whole premise is based on the fallacy that the message God is conveying in the bible is one of salvation or death by torture.
Again you are using the logic that you are right; hence,if you are right, and I disagree with you then I am wrong. But you don't actually look at or discuss any of the opposition's findings.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 2:5 NIV
"so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power."
2 Timothy 3:15-17 NIV
"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Peter 1:20,21 NIV
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Hewbrews 4:12 NIV
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
2 Samuel 22:31 NIV
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
You cant argue those bible verses without going outside the bible for information which makes your viewpoint wrong. Its not christianity.
What is there to argue with? I have no problem with those verses. It is your interpretation of their meaning and application that I have issues with.
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URs don't "eternally condemn" anyone
