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Trettep, can you repeat re-state your statement, Idon't know if it's my eyes, or my brain, or both, but I want to understand what you wrote, and I'm not getting what you said, and I want to understand it . . . be patient with me, I'm still not recoverd, blessings,
Hi Lifesigns64. I'm saying there that God has desired to save all and will not fail in doing so (He can't fail - He is God). He would fail if he didn't save everyone. Also, the Greek Word is the basis for the translations of "eternal" or "everlasting" in the King James version of the Bible and many other translations. This is in ERROR, the word Aionios CANNOT mean "eternal" or "everlasting". The word Aionios refers to something that exists in the present age and will continue to exist beyond the present age. For example, let's look at a verse where it is used:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
In both of those places that I have bolded the same Greek word of "aionios" is used. Now notice that it applies everlasting to the word punishment. The word punishment there is from the Greek word "Kolasis" which means to "curtail". If you were to curtail someone from doing something then you would never reach the point of curtailment if you were doing that curtailing forever. Therefore, aionios cannot mean everlasting or eternal.
So what does aionios mean? - It means that the thing described (aionios is an adjective) will continue to BE beyond this age. So if we have AIONIOS Life - then it means that Life is available in this age and shall continue beyond this age. If we have aionios punishment then that means the punishment is in this age and shall continue to be in the next age. It doesn't address when things end (as many here that are universalists shall falsely contend). It only tells you from what point something shall continue which is the boundary of the present age.
No it makes no sense. There is no great revelation to know that God is pertaining to the ages. There is no great revelation to know that Life is pertaining to the ages (that is an absurdity - for obviously if there are ages there is life pertaining to it.) Also, your assertion fails because of this verse as well:
Paul
Dear Paul,
Obviously there is a great revelation in knowing that God is the aionios Theos A.K.A. the "eonian God." It lets us know Who is actually running the show.
There is also assurance in knowing we will have eonian life or live pertaining to the eons to come. We are promised to live during the greatest two final eons out of all the previous eons which went before. All those former eons will end and be taken over by the last two eons.
The nice thing about eonian chastening is to know it is not eternal. It too is pertaining to the eon (as to Matthew 25:46). This assures us that the chastening will not be eternal.
Quote:
Paul wrote:
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
If we use your understanding it would mean that the secret has been kept during the ages. So as long as an age exist then that would mean the secret would always remain.
Paul, Kosmos is world. Kosmos in not in Romans 16:26; aionios is.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,
Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures,
The secret was hushed in times pertaining to the eons which went before. Yet now the secret is manifested.
Romans 16:25:
"25 The importance of this closing benediction is apparent from the fact that it was written by the apostle with his own hand after Tertius had finished the epistle. Paul characterizes the great themes of his epistle, my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian(conciliation), in contrast with the gospel of God (1:1) which He promised before. The conciliation was not made known through the ancient prophets, but through prophetic writings, such as this epistle and 2 Corinthians. It is of principal importance that we see the point the apostle makes here, for otherwise we shall not appreciate the unique, distinctive character of the conciliation, which is first set forth in this epistle. The teaching of the fifth to the eighth chapters and especially the eleventh chapter is absolutely unknown in the prophets. In the latter all blessing comes to the nations through Israel as the channel. The conciliation comes because Israel is thrust aside. The prophets would lead us to infer that Israel's apostasy would bar all possibility of blessing to the nations. The conciliation was a secret likely knew nothing of, for it makes Israel's defection the ground of worldwide, unbounded blessing to the nations until Israel is again in God's reckoning." (A.E. Knoch, Concordant Commentary).
Lets see what the bible says about using things outside of it that are based on men's faulty logic and not God's infinite wisdom.
1 Corinthians 2:5 NIV
"so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power."
2 Timothy 3:15-17 NIV
"and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
2 Peter 1:20,21 NIV
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Hewbrews 4:12 NIV
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Psalms 118:8 NIV
It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
Isaiah 40:8 NIV
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
2 Samuel 22:31 NIV
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
There you have it. The bible says to use the bible for teaching and that it is all the word of God. The bible says it stands forever and that God is pefect and his word is FLAWLESS. If you are altering the meaning of the bible by using books outside of it and you will be blaspheming the bible and the teachings of Jesus. Lets see what the bible says about people who alter its meaning like universalists and mormons.
Isaiah 5:24 NIV
Therefore, as tongues of fire lick up straw and as dry grass sinks down in the flames, so their roots will decay and their flowers blow away like dust; for they have rejected the law of the LORD Almighty and spurned the word of the Holy One of Israel.
1 Samuel 5:23 NIV (Samuel talking to King Saul, but still holds true for us)
"For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has rejected you as king."
Exodus 23:1 NIV
"Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness.
Galations 1:6-9 NIV
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
If you are changing the word of God and its message by using unbiblical sources, you will be guilty of blaspheming the word of God and will be judged accordingly. That last passage in Galations says if an angel himself comes down and gives you a new gospel that he is eternally condemned. I'm pretty sure we can guess God's message and intents in these verses.
Dear Paul,
Obviously there is a great revelation in knowing that God is the aionios Theos A.K.A. the "eonian God." It lets us know Who is actually running the show.
There is also assurance in knowing we will have eonian life or live pertaining to the eons to come. We are promised to live during the greatest two final eons out of all the previous eons which went before. All those former eons will end and be taken over by the last two eons.
The nice thing about eonian chastening is to know it is not eternal. It too is pertaining to the eon (as to Matthew 25:46). This assures us that the chastening will not be eternal.
Paul, Kosmos is world. Kosmos in not in Romans 16:26; aionios is.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,
Rom 16:26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures,
The secret was hushed in times pertaining to the eons which went before. Yet now the secret is manifested.
Romans 16:25:
"25 The importance of this closing benediction is apparent from the fact that it was written by the apostle with his own hand after Tertius had finished the epistle. Paul characterizes the great themes of his epistle, my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian(conciliation), in contrast with the gospel of God (1:1) which He promised before. The conciliation was not made known through the ancient prophets, but through prophetic writings, such as this epistle and 2 Corinthians. It is of principal importance that we see the point the apostle makes here, for otherwise we shall not appreciate the unique, distinctive character of the conciliation, which is first set forth in this epistle. The teaching of the fifth to the eighth chapters and especially the eleventh chapter is absolutely unknown in the prophets. In the latter all blessing comes to the nations through Israel as the channel. The conciliation comes because Israel is thrust aside. The prophets would lead us to infer that Israel's apostasy would bar all possibility of blessing to the nations. The conciliation was a secret likely knew nothing of, for it makes Israel's defection the ground of worldwide, unbounded blessing to the nations until Israel is again in God's reckoning." (A.E. Knoch, Concordant Commentary).
Thank you for that good response to Paul's reasonings Eusebius.
It seems to me that Paul's greatest concern as a fellow UR (i.e. on our side of the issue) is that if we can't prove that aionios sometimes means everlasting then ETers will argue that both the life of God might come to an end, or at least that God will be seen to be somehow "limited" and therefore will not receive the glory that is due to His Name, and also that the life of the believer might come to an end too.
What I wish Paul could understand is that neither concern is warranted as demonstrated in detail by this link. There simply is no place in the Bible where aionios translated as a limted period of time does not make perfect sense.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Although there are occasions where (by coincidence) it would not be wrong to perceive aionios as everlasting, there is no etymological necessity in the word itself to so translate it anywhere in the Bible, as demonstrated in the above link.
Rather than weakening the UR position (like Paul thinks it does), I perceive that insisting that aionios should always be translated as a limted period of time in the Bible, (like Young, Concordant, Rotherham, Wilson, Clementson, Scarlett, and many others always translate it), actually strengthens the UR position, as explained in the above link.
Paul, did you ever read the contents of the above link in an effort to try to understand our point of view?
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Last edited by rodgertutt; 10-02-2009 at 08:52 AM..
Reason: addition
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
Calling someone a mormon or universalist isnt name calling to my knowledge. If you think I am name calling you need to look at what your fellow universalists on this board have called me...all sorts of names...thats because they dont have an actual argument to stand on...just like yourself. But I wouldnt expect universalists to actually adhere to the teachings of Jesus as you blatantly ignore large sections of the bible.
You are using sources outside of the bible to come to your beliefs and you are wrong. Did you not read the bible verses I just posted or are you unable to comprehend english? Which one is it? Those bible verses clearly instruct you to not rely on the wisdom of men but the word of God. You arent doing that and therefore are guilty of heresy and slandering the bible.
2 Samuel 22:31 NIV
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
God's word is FLAWLESS and his way is perfect. If you cant comprehend that I will continue to remind you. Your belief system and teachings are outside of the bible and therefore are not christian but a false belief system. If anything has been altered its the words of men, such as the links you have posted. God threatens anyone that altered or alters his word with eternal condemnation.
Galations 1:6-9 NIV
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
The bible says right there if you change the gospel you will be eternally condemned. Can you not read that? Is that too arduous for you to understand? Universalism is not christianity, its a complete lost cause. The bible teaches what is right and you arent accepting that. You need to move your lies and slander over to the atheism/agnostic board where it belongs.
Yes, but you will not find a flawless physical represntation of it on earth, So your whole premise is flawed.
As you argue to point out the flaw in a certain belief system based on your criteria, you bring the logic to full measure that all beliefs systems are flawed, therefore all are guilty.
Well played.
BTW, what exactly do you believe? Are you hesitant to explain this because you know how the people who agree with you NOW will react.
Or are you simply really a christian bearing false witness and justifying it based on your hatred of the idea that Jesus saves all mankind?
Thank you for that good response to Paul's reasonings Eusebius.
It seems to me that Paul's greatest concern as a fellow UR (i.e. on our side of the issue) is that if we can't prove that aionios sometimes means everlasting then ETers will argue that both the life of God might come to an end, or at least that God will be seen to be somehow "limited" and therefore will not receive the glory that is due to His Name, and also that the life of the believer might come to an end too.
What I wish Paul could understand is that neither concern is warranted as demonstrated in detail by this link. There simply is no place in the Bible where aionios translated as a limted period of time does not make perfect sense.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Although there are occasions where (by coincidence) it would not be wrong to perceive aionios as everlasting, there is no etymological necessity in the word itself to so translate it anywhere in the Bible, as demonstrated in the above link.
Rather than weakening the UR position (like Paul thinks it does), I perceive that insisting that aionios should always be translated as a limted period of time in the Bible, (like Young, Concordant, Rotherham, Wilson, Clementson, Scarlett, and many others always translate it), actually strengthens the UR position, as explained in the above link.
Paul, did you ever read the contents of the above link in an effort to try to understand our point of view?
I now understand Paul's position but I have to say that we musn't forget that word usage then wasn't that different from how we use it today.
For example, I may say that God is eternal. But the next second my pain is eternal when I stub my toe. Both usages are correct. One is the literal definition and one an exaggeration to express the horrific pain in my toe, but both certainly apply.
The same can be said for the biblical usage. God is the only thing even close to our literal view of eternity so when the adjective is applied to God everyone is on the same page and knows the right definition to apply to the word.
And when it is used with a word that cannot be eternal such as the pain in my toe, we understand that I mean it was extremely painful and the pain lasted an indefinite amount of time (even though it was minutes it seemed like an eternity to me)
We always determine the definition of a word from the context and usage in our ordinary conversation, why should it be any different in the bible? There is no evidence that punishment of any kind as we know it that last's eternally. Even a life sentence ends with death. Same with life... life as we know it does not last eternally as it ends with death.
It is the christians that believe every word in the bible was inspired by and approved by God who think the words have to fit in with their doctrine in order to be inspired and approved.
The usage of eternal had no impact on my learning about UR. All I had to do was read the bible and it jumps out at ya that Jesus came to save the lost, the sinners and his goal was to give his life to save all.
A little test about the word "ALL" that's found in Scripture.
If Truth is changed to not be all inclusive, when the context renders that it should be it then becomes error.
Reconsider the following Scriptures, without using any preconceived thoughts or forced interpretation upon them. This may be more difficult to do than first realized, because we all resort to an immediate interpretation of something based on our past understandings of the verse.
Like wolves among the sheep, carnally-minded men within the church system found it very effective to use the fear of an unending hell to control the masses that enter their religion.
Unfortunately this doctrine has remained at large in Christianity as a whole.
The Lord Jesus said, "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself." - John 12:32
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
Operating all in accord with counsel of His will (Eph 1:11)
In Adam all dying; in Christ shall all be vivified (1 Cor 15:21-23)
It says "in Christ shall all," not "all who are in Christ."
One offense for all mankind for condemnation... (Rom 5:18-19)
Lamb of God taking away sin of the world (John 1:29)
Correspondent ransom for all (1 Tim 2:6)
Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
“in” is the literal Greek translation. See Young’s Literal Translation
and every tongue acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord,
especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
Locks all in stubbornness; to be merciful to all (Rom 11:30-32)
All created ... to reconcile all (Col 1:16-20)
He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone (Heb 2:9)
That the world might be saved thru Him (John 3:17)
God was in Christ conciliating the world to Himself (2 Cor 5:18)
For our sins, not ours only but the whole world (1 John 2:2)
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. Was it something i said ?
The response of eusebius to paul
