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Old 09-14-2009, 02:35 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,446,997 times
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This doctrine has caused many to commit suicide even warped many parents thinking against their children not even the unbelievers could accept this doctrine, it defies logic and prevents many from accepting Christ thus hurting the gospel. I cannot believe I at one time taught this horrible doctrine of justification but I have been forgiven and won't subject myself to anymore religion of people who want to control others. I have broken my chains and now through the help of the Holy Spirit I can think for myself by just understanding God's you can know the truth that justification is heresy from the pits of hell.

Thanks to men like Steve Chalke and Alan Mann who truly know the love of God, "The Lost Message of Jesus" the traditional presentation of the atonement is a barrier to faith for many people because it seems to portray the cross as "cosmic child abuse -- a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed."......

Pierced for Our Transgressions ... - Google Books
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
This doctrine has caused many to commit suicide even warped many parents thinking against their children not even the unbelievers could accept this doctrine, it defies logic and prevents many from accepting Christ thus hurting the gospel. I cannot believe I at one time taught this horrible doctrine of justification but I have been forgiven and won't subject myself to anymore religion of people who want to control others. I have broken my chains and now through the help of the Holy Spirit I can think for myself by just understanding God's you can know the truth that justification is heresy from the pits of hell.

Thanks to men like Steve Chalke and Alan Mann who truly know the love of God, "The Lost Message of Jesus" the traditional presentation of the atonement is a barrier to faith for many people because it seems to portray the cross as "cosmic child abuse -- a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed."......

Pierced for Our Transgressions ... - Google Books
I have no idea what you are talking about.... Even the book uses terms I am not familiar with. It's probably just me but can you explain in plain language? Thanks.
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Old 09-14-2009, 02:55 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,446,997 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I have no idea what you are talking about.... Even the book uses terms I am not familiar with. It's probably just me but can you explain in plain language? Thanks.
Justification is a heresy. Jesus did not bare the sins for us on the cross. Why would God allow His Son to be punished for something He never did nor how can any logical sane person accept that. That is cosmic child abuse.
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Old 09-14-2009, 03:11 PM
 
Location: California
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This is simply my understanding:

You have a problem. Your understanding of justification posits a complete separation of the father and the son. Only unitarians, so far as I know, posit this and I believe they tend to reject this kind of justification. From a trinitarian view the father and the son are not completely separate. They share the same essence. The difference is in Jesus also being human, which is what is supposed to allow for him to stand in for humankind. Hence the father does not punish the son, a completely different being. He punishes himself because the father and son are intertwined. He takes the sins of humanity upon himself because in his justice he demands punishment but in his mercy he refuses to punish all men. God then becomes his own sacrifice and it's the ultimate act of selfless love and mercy. Further, the crucifixion is followed by the resurrection celebrating that the suffering is over and that the death was not eternal but that life and joy are eternal. I'm not sure if I believe it exactly that way because I think it might pit God against himself too much (his wrath against his mercy), but you are distorting it to call it child abuse.
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Old 09-14-2009, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Justification is a heresy. Jesus did not bare the sins for us on the cross. Why would God allow His Son to be punished for something He never did nor how can any logical sane person accept that. That is cosmic child abuse.
Ok I see. Thanks

Well first of all the title "son of God" and "son of man" are used by Jesus to describe himself. The people he was speaking to at that time understood that "son of God" meant "servant of God" and likewise with "son of man" being understood as "servant of man." Therefore as a servant of God and man, he was considered a mediator. Now you can see that a mediator cannot be one of the parties involved in the dispute as that makes no sense. So therefore, in my own mind, Jesus was a fully human servant who offered to die so that all may live. This also makes perfect sense in that Jesus asked God if it was absolutely necessary for him to die. If you or I saw a group of people about to be slain and offered for us to be killed and the rest let go.. wouldn't that show others how much we loved them?

So I agree with the statement that cosmic child abuse would be correct if the circumstances were as you and the authors surmise were actually correct. But, IMO.. things are different and therefore it is not the case..
Does that make sense?

I'll probably get nailed to a cross for saying I believe Jesus is not a deity but I'll take my chances and hope it doesn't turn into a trinity debate.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:57 AM
 
7,788 posts, read 10,443,690 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

I'll probably get nailed to a cross for saying I believe Jesus is not a deity but...

...Then June will too.

It seems to June that "cosmic child abuse" is a bit of a stretch. (Even the nonbeliever went "Huh?" to that one.) If anything, one could stretch it even further and say that it was the ultimate form of masochistic abuse. However, there is a part of June that would prefer to think that there is something of merit for believers who think in terms of atonement. That would be a preferable concept, as it is one that entails and implies hope. --Hope as well via an identification not with masochism or abuse, but rather, hope as defined as the alleviation of suffering, and how that might just come about...

Take gentle care.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,383,615 times
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Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
...Then June will too.

It seems to June that "cosmic child abuse" is a bit of a stretch. (Even the nonbeliever went "Huh?" to that one.) If anything, one could stretch it even further and say that it was the ultimate form of masochistic abuse. However, there is a part of June that would prefer to think that there is something of merit for believers who think in terms of atonement. That would be a preferable concept, as it is one that entails and implies hope. --Hope as well via an identification not with masochism or abuse, but rather, hope as defined as the alleviation of suffering, and how that might just come about...

Take gentle care.
Well it seems the thread is still intact But "cosmic child abuse" does make sense if we are all God's children and he punishes by us burning and torture for eternity. In comparison the two are very similar but it is a stretch and also I wanted to make the comparison but that is not to say I wanted to debate eternal torture, as we have plenty of threads for that.

Last edited by katjonjj; 09-15-2009 at 09:26 AM.. Reason: added to it.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:40 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Justification is a heresy. Jesus did not bare the sins for us on the cross. Why would God allow His Son to be punished for something He never did nor how can any logical sane person accept that. That is cosmic child abuse.
You are kidding, right?

God put all mankind to death in the death of Christ. He stripped off the old humanity.
God also raised His Son from the dead and the new creation will be in the new Christ.

These people you are listening to that teach justification is a heresy are wrong. Justification is a major doctrine in the Scriptures. And really, who ever committed suicide over justification? Most people don't even know what it means.
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Old 09-15-2009, 11:44 AM
 
14,990 posts, read 7,526,891 times
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Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You are kidding, right?

God put all mankind to death in the death of Christ. He stripped off the old humanity.
God also raised His Son from the dead and the new creation will be in the new Christ.
I know Fundamentalist is trying to make a point with this thread but, forgive me F because I have to say how grateful I am that you started it even though for me it didn't serve the purpose you were after.

Eusebius, that is the best explanation of justification I have ever heard. Since coming to see God's character without the horrible taint of ET, I have been struggling over the past few years to understand how justification (or "penal substitution", which I had been taught was the same thing) fit with that. The way you worded it made things click into place finally and reconciles that issue for me. I appreciate your clarity on this!
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