The rapture is coming (hell, doctrine, beliefs, sin)

[freedom]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

"whoever Jesus was speaking with when He said; There be some standing here," By standing here, did that mean standing where he is? Where exactly was he standing. Or did he mean standing here as in right next to him at that time he was talking. When you are talking to people do you tell them something meant for those 2000 years in the future or do you talk to those standing around you? If what you said is correct and it hasn't happened yet then isn't that calling Jesus a liar?

"that shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in His kingdom..." this says they wont die till as in until... as in they will taste death AFTER they see the son of man coming. In no way does this imply they will NEVER die. I will walk till I see the sun... I am going to stop at some point right? Just as every man dies. Now if you think that hasn't happened yet I can understand as I thought that way for many years but know this: I don't think millions (if there are that many) of christians dropping dead after seeing the son of man coming is what you were thinking by the rapture.

We cannot escape death. Isn't this the only sure part of life? Even taking into account that those you list seem to disappear or are translated... There is no proof they did not die, just that they were with the Lord. No man has gone into heaven except that which came from heaven. Those men you listed are surely not in heaven for it is plainly written that until Jesus returns (as you think) there is no one in heaven, and you must die physically to be resurrected.

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We all came from heaven, that is why we have an opportunity to return.
How else were our names written in the book of life, "before" the foundations of the world.

Read Job, where God reminds him of the sons of God shouted for joy, and the morning stars(daughters) sang, when the foundations were laid.

godspeed,

freedom

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by freedom

Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We all came from heaven, that is why we have an opportunity to return.
How else were our names written in the book of life, "before" the foundations of the world.

Read Job, where God reminds him of the sons of God shouted for joy, and the morning stars(daughters) sang, when the foundations were laid.

godspeed,

freedom

I totally agree with you. We are all sons of God and so is Jesus. BUT if you are talking about some that will not physically die... I have to say that all all things mortal must die.

It will happen. There is no "poof" and you are translated or transported. The body will die.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

It is apparent that you don't understand preterism. There are hundreds of verses that say "1000" something and NONE of them can be taken literally! 1000 years is like a day...It's been 2000 since he said he would come yet the 1000 years doesn't seem to phase you.

There were approximately 37 years between Christ's death and the fall of the temple. That generation he spoke to would still have been alive. In fact doesn't Jesus say something about the little children entering the kingdom?

The emperor's were not Jesus! In the OT nations were used in judgment of other nations. It was a common thing to happen in the Israelite history. This would have been apparent to the Jews at that time.

Oh the dead were resurrected...not to earth but resurrected. And those that were alive were changed in the twinkling of an eye.

If you are up to it you should read revelations and Josephus' account of the jews struggle during the fall in 70 AD. It's long and tedious but well worth knowing what was going on at that time.

In some things you surprise me and others I am aghast at how you can believe it. Perhaps you can shed some light on why you think the bible teaches that some will never die a physical death. There are two deaths... one: the body dies, two: the lake of fire.... Some will not see death #2 but all will go through #1 or you can't rightly say you were resurrected...

you Understand though that these interpretations of scripture can be construed nevertheless as phantasmagorical. They are certainly spiritualized interpretations and not taking the word at face value. I agree that the word of God in many places is to be understood symbolically, and in some places figuratively, but in others literally. The difficulty is in rightly dividing when the bible should be interpreted one way or the other. My point in the above message is specifically to demonstrate the fact that the full preterit interpretation of scripture is every bit as suspect of phantasmagoria as is the full futurist perspective ... I am neither full preterist or full futurist.

By the way, i believe that the privilege of the "harpazo" is just that, a privilege and a blessing. I believe there will be some who never taste death. They are just an elect generation, and are called to that dispensation. It is just a part of the plan and purpose of God in the ages. They will not be resurrected, they will be changed in the blink of an eye.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

This is something that I am in deep study concerning. The Chilio/1000 years begins with those resurrected from the Great Tribulation. As a Preterist, this must fall into 70 AD, since I believe the resurrection of the dead and living, the Bema judgement, and the conflagaration of the Old Covenant and Temple was destroyed (Old Heaven and Earth) and the New Heaven and Earth (Covenant in Christ and Church) are embodied in 70 AD.

So what is to say about the 1000 years? Or better yet, the thousand thousands of years, to be strict to the text?

Didn't Peter give us a little clue? A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and what He does in a thousand years signifies completion and his handiwork. The scene in Revelation 20, the reign of the Great Tribulation martyred saints are souls, that receive the eternal. This happens at the onset of the Chilio/1000 years and the new Covenant in Christ at the end.

Let me propose a new idea or interpretation.

Revelation is predominantly a symbolic book of the heavenly and its shadows on earth.
The Chilio is not 1000 years, or 40, or thousands of years, but only one day. The day of the Lord. And in that day, God's work is complete.

Maybe I have just lost my mind.......

I appreciate you struggle with this theological predicament ... I have to say though i believe perhaps your over simplifying the matter as there is much more said about the millennium.

Such as the fact that the dragon will be bound in the pit during that time unable to deceive the nations. At what point in history could it be said that Satan was not deceiving the nations?

Also the bride of Christ or the church is said to be ruling at that time with Christ as kings and as priests. Do you think that represents the catholic Church?

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by freedom

Flesh divine is not in the KJV bible, but this verse gives a window to the promise.

I thought so.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

There is nothing flesh about this, so why forcefit the paradigm into it?

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Same goes for here.

The book of Enoch, and the book of Moses can show what i mean.

Is it part of the New Covenant apostolic generation of the 1st Century?
It is obvious that the prophecy of Christ was kept record since the time of Moses, and as far back as the Patriarchs. We have plenty of evidence in scripture of this. From Jude 1:14:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

We in turn see something similar to this prophecy in Daniel 7:10

A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

These two prophecies IMO are exact, and most likely derived from Enoch and passed down throughout the age of the Jewish dispensation.

Now to say that the book of Enoch should be trusted? I really don't see a reason why not, but I do believe that our canon we have now, was Divinely inspired to be assembled in the way we have today. Especially if we are dealing with Christ and His doctrine, and not just mere historical parallels that can be exampled in Biblical fulfillments. The rapture is a doctrine, although misguided by the flesh, it is still a doctrine. And it was developed from the New Testament. The book of Enoch is not in the New Testament, and was penned before Christ arrived on the scene. Therefore, our last prophet was Micah, 400 years before Christ, so Enoch is commonly agreed to be 1st century BC.

To me, it may have some value, like the Sibylline Oracles, which was widely used among the apostles as well, but it isn't scripture.

The book of Enoch is such a book.

[ChristyGrl]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

phantasmagoric
(Good word!)

I still want to know how they try to justify this mass of people who don't have to die.

They can't justify any of these views....they just make stuff up....haven't you seen that already...LOL

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by katjonjj
phantasmagoric
(Good word!)


I missed that one!

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

you Understand though that these interpretations of scripture can be construed nevertheless as phantasmagorical. They are certainly spiritualized interpretations and not taking the word at face value.

Phantasmagoria - Websters

1. A fantastic sequence of haphazardly associative imagery, as seen in dreams or fever.
2. A constantly changing scene composed of numerous elements.

My saying that it happened when the contemporaries of Jesus were still alive and without all the chariots, dragons, helicopter monsters, and people vanishing is a fantastic sequence of haphazardly associative imagery?

Wow now if that ain't calling the kettle black... (Where did that saying come from anyway )

I agree that the word of God in many places is to be understood symbolically, and in some places figuratively, but in others literally. The difficulty is in rightly dividing when the bible should be interpreted one way or the other. My point in the above message is specifically to demonstrate the fact that the full preterit interpretation of scripture is every bit as suspect of phantasmagoria as is the full futurist perspective ... I am neither full preterist or full futurist.

see above. If a book is written about a vision - its figurative. its allegorical. It is not literal. FYI IMHO.

By the way, i believe that the privilege of the "harpazo" is just that, a privilege and a blessing. I believe there will be some who never taste death. They are just an elect generation, and are called to that dispensation. It is just a part of the plan and purpose of God in the ages. They will not be resurrected, they will be changed in the blink of an eye.

So all that hardwork and persecution that the apostles and early church went through from the death of Christ was all for naught?
Yet that generation that is to come someday will be privileged and blessed?

If people don't vanish and you are eighty will you still hold this view?

If there is a NWO and we all get RFID's and everything still goes on... will you then admit that perhaps the preterist view is applicable?

What would it take to convince you. If you say it is future there is no way to show you otherwise, other than trying to get you to see into the past.

anyway.... bygones

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

Phantasmagoria - Websters

1. A fantastic sequence of haphazardly associative imagery, as seen in dreams or fever.
2. A constantly changing scene composed of numerous elements.

My saying that it happened when the contemporaries of Jesus were still alive and without all the chariots, dragons, helicopter monsters, and people vanishing is a fantastic sequence of haphazardly associative imagery?

Wow now if that ain't calling the kettle black... (Where did that saying come from anyway )

Phantasmagorical
1. a shifting series of phantasms, illusions, or deceptive appearances, as in a dream or as created by the imagination.

The first definition is how i meant i see the full preterist interpretation.
As in The roman army being the return of Jesus. And the thousand years and Satan being bound and the Christians ruling as kings and priests all took place between the death of Christ and the fall of the temple.

Now don't push off every full futurist interpretation you have ever heard on me and say im being hypocritical ... I admit that many of them are just as fantastic and in my opinion fallacious.

see above. If a book is written about a vision - its figurative. its allegorical. It is not literal. FYI IMHO.

Well, then every prophecy of the old testament that was literally fulfilled and thus had a literal meaning to begin with is to be taken symbolically and figuratively but not literally even though we know they literally came true? When did God stop literally fulfilling prophecy and only give symbolic and figurative visions of the future that could not be understood literally and what is your scriptural basis for this belief?

So all that hardwork and persecution that the apostles and early church went through from the death of Christ was all for naught?
Yet that generation that is to come someday will be privileged and blessed?

Not at all, the most blessed of all will be the martyred dead, even more blessed then those who never tasted death. And where it not for what the apostles and early church had accomplished in the times just after Christ the gospel would never have been planted as a seed in the world and would not be with us today two thousand years later. I'd say they had accomplished a great deal indeed.

If people don't vanish and you are eighty will you still hold this view?

I cant say what i will believe then, but probably something similar to now at least.

If there is a NWO and we all get RFID's and everything still goes on... will you then admit that perhaps the preterist view is applicable?

I admit you might be right now ... I admit i might be wrong at this very moment. But ... i am still of my own opinion nevertheless and am still in study concerning these things.

What would it take to convince you. If you say it is future there is no way to show you otherwise, other than trying to get you to see into the past.

Only death or the return of Christ. I imagine i will always hold a partial futurist view because i believe that is a large part of the yet unfulfilled plan and purpose of God in the ages to destroy the works of the devil and renew the entire creation, not just humans and fallen angels but every part of nature so that death is completely, and not only spiritually destroyed.

anyway.... bygones

I am only iron sharpening ... We are not at odds in our differences. I consider you a true brother in Christ. God bless ...

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Phantasmagorical
1. a shifting series of phantasms, illusions, or deceptive appearances, as in a dream or as created by the imagination.

The first definition is how i meant i see the full preterist interpretation.
As in The roman army being the return of Jesus. And the thousand years and Satan being bound and the Christians ruling as kings and priests all took place between the death of Christ and the fall of the temple.

Since we are being so brotherly in this discussion I think I will touch on a few points.

I don't see the roman army as being the return of Jesus, I see the roman army as used to destroy the temple. It was foretold plainly that it would be torn down, one stone not left upon another. I also don't take the 1000 years literally. I don't see Christians ruling as kings a priests, and especially not on earth. Those that are killed for their testimony in Christ are the "christians" that rule according to Rev. 20. So I don't see that as literally reigning on earth. Again, prophecy tells who, what, and why but seldon does it say how. The how is usually presented as a vision.

Now don't push off every full futurist interpretation you have ever heard on me and say im being hypocritical ... I admit that many of them are just as fantastic and in my opinion fallacious.

No I won't I just wonder how you think I am adding anything to it or switching from literal to figurative without merit.

Well, then every prophecy of the old testament that was literally fulfilled and thus had a literal meaning to begin with is to be taken symbolically and figuratively but not literally even though we know they literally came true? When did God stop literally fulfilling prophecy and only give symbolic and figurative visions of the future that could not be understood literally and what is your scriptural basis for this belief?

Not necessarily. The event may have happened by apocalyptic language such as the stars falling from the sky, the moon turning red... trumpets sounding... those are shown very clearly to be symbolic of the greatness of the event not that they literally took place. Every mountain did not literally move and it really doesn't have to be literal for it to be a fulfillment to the prophecy because it is not an essential part of the prophecy.

Not at all, the most blessed of all will be the martyred dead, even more blessed then those who never tasted death. And where it not for what the apostles and early church had accomplished in the times just after Christ the gospel would never have been planted as a seed in the world and would not be with us today two thousand years later. I'd say they had accomplished a great deal indeed.

See... "were it not for what the apostles and early church accomplished" you mean spreading the word amidst arrest, and death if they continued?
Yet you think there are other martyrs "standing there" in "this generation" of the apostles that are alive in the future that will go through something like they did? Impossible. And I will tell you why..
John the Baptist was beheaded,
Stephen was stoned to death in the street and Saul approved of it,
Peter was crucified witnessing in Britain
Andrew was crucified on a cross (X) when he witnessed in Asia
Bartholomew was beaten to death during a mission trip to Asia,
Jude was crucified,
Mattias, who replaced Judas, was stoned then beheaded,
Luke was hanged,
James the great was beheaded,
James the less was thrown from the temple wall (some say at age 94?) and survived so the Jews beat him with a club until his skull open up and spilled it's contents,
Matthew died by sword witnessing in Ethiopia,
Saul/Paul preached all over then was beheaded by order of Nero,
Philip was scourged, thrown in prison then crucified in upper asia,
Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria,

Now of course these are the stories of tradition, but do you get what I mean? Most of these guys died before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Now they are the ones that should be rewarded for their sacrifice, not some future supposed martyrs. I mean can you imagine how many things would have to change now for something this bad to happen? The time was ripe then for the "end times" and second coming.

I cant say what i will believe then, but probably something similar to now at least.

I notice that the death bed changes people's views.

I admit you might be right now ... I admit i might be wrong at this very moment. But ... i am still of my own opinion nevertheless and am still in study concerning these things.

And I'm not really trying to prove you wrong as I am trying to show you that it is entirely feasible. If you read the war according to Josephus it will be clearer what I mean about it being feasible. For example, Jesus said that it would be especially bad for pregnant women and Josephus records that there was a famine inside the city so there were people actually eating their own children or selling them to others for Gold. I mean it was nasty! Tragic, and yet it is said that a great number escaped to the mountains (Christians who heeded Jesus' warnings?).

Only death or the return of Christ. I imagine i will always hold a partial futurist view because i believe that is a large part of the yet unfulfilled plan and purpose of God in the ages to destroy the works of the devil and renew the entire creation, not just humans and fallen angels but every part of nature so that death is completely, and not only spiritually destroyed.
I am only iron sharpening ... We are not at odds in our differences. I consider you a true brother in Christ. God bless ...

Out of curiosity, how do you reconcile the fact that if Christ has not returned then our salvation is not complete and the new covenant is not in force yet?