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Old 09-20-2009, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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There are those that believe they are to be raptured before the tribulation.... right?

Jesus lived and died on earth, why would you live on earth but not die. Even Jesus died. Where does this belief of conquering the first death, that of the body, in the rapture come from?

If all christians were lined up today and told them that as a testament to their faith they must be shot with a gun in the upper thigh... how many would still be in line? If it is said they all must be beheaded who would stick around? They think they are gonna escape that with a rapture... and yet some will endure it but they have to die a horrible death first.

I just don't understand the logic in that. Jesus never claimed that one would escape the first death only the second death... am I right or loopy?
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
There are those that believe they are to be raptured before the tribulation.... right?

Jesus lived and died on earth, why would you live on earth but not die. Even Jesus died. Where does this belief of conquering the first death, that of the body, in the rapture come from?

If all christians were lined up today and told them that as a testament to their faith they must be shot with a gun in the upper thigh... how many would still be in line? If it is said they all must be beheaded who would stick around? They think they are gonna escape that with a rapture... and yet some will endure it but they have to die a horrible death first.

I just don't understand the logic in that. Jesus never claimed that one would escape the first death only the second death... am I right or loopy?
Jesus said in Luke 17,

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:25 PM
 
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there shall be two men in one bed; one shall be taken...Where, Lord?...where the vultures gather.
Doesn't sound like any kind of rapture I'd want to take part in!!!
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Jesus said in Luke 17,

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
The one that is taken is where the eagles are gathered? What does that tell me? Where do the others go? They stay where?

What is this really talking about? Even Matthew Henry states:

"The kingdom of God was among the Jews, or rather within some of them. It was a spiritual kingdom, set up in the heart by the power of Divine grace. Observe how it had been with sinners formerly, and in what state the judgments of God, which they had been warned of, found them. Here is shown what a dreadful surprise this destruction will be to the secure and sensual. Thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. When Christ came to destroy the Jewish nation by the Roman armies, that nation was found in such a state of false security as is here spoken of." Luke 17 - Matthew Henry’s Commentary - Bible Commentary
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Doesn't sound like any kind of rapture I'd want to take part in!!!
Wow, never noticed that before.... Maybe it's not the same bed.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Jesus never claimed that one would escape the first death only the second death... am I right or loopy?

You are correct and you are not loopy. 1st Corithians 15 is plain about this. There is what is sown, your human body, and what is raised, is your spirit. The second death is the spiritual death...the condemned death.

“Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. “Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left, Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:40-42).

Note that in Matthew the verses follow verse 36,. Yet in Luke, the verses are connected to verses clearly in the “destruction of Jerusalem” section.
On these same verses in Luke 17:34-36, Luke connects them to the same text found in the destruction of Jerusalem section of Matthew 24. Compare verse 37, “And they answered and said to Him,Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together”, with the text in Mathew 24:28. There can be no doubt that the events and time are one and belong to A.D. 70.
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
You are correct and you are not loopy. 1st Corithians 15 is plain about this. There is what is sown, your human body, and what is raised, is your spirit. The second death is the spiritual death...the condemned death.
Ok thanks. So no one escapes the first death... So how does one teach an escape from physical death (rapture) in the end times?
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Old 09-20-2009, 05:58 PM
 
5,438 posts, read 5,908,908 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ok thanks. So no one escapes the first death... So how does one teach an escape from physical death (rapture) in the end times?
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)
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Old 09-20-2009, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,303 posts, read 6,397,835 times
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Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)
The whole book of Revelation is directed at the first century audience, the seven churches....in the beginning and the end of the book...moving away from that relevance is pure speculation and assumption based on...nothing. Sorry...no rapture...nor resurrection in the 21st century.

Just physical death, and if you are saved, no second death.
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Old 09-20-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: God's Country
22,996 posts, read 34,256,841 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

am I right or loopy?
I don't know if your loopy but you are wrong, there will a rapture before the seven years of tribulation.
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