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Old 09-24-2009, 09:37 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,923,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I'm calling you out in saying that I've heard it all before, and I'm tired of it!

legoman...let me put it to you this way...My past experience, in answering these type of questions, serves as a reminder to me that it is pointless and to not even bother anymore. Why?...because when I quote all the scripture in the Bible that clearly states something is "eternal"...(whatever it is)...(oh, of course EXCEPT when it speaks of eternal love)......, you and those that are like-minded with you come back and post your "ages and ages upon ages in ages" junk...trying to say that eternal doesn't mean eternal...destruction doesn't mean destruction...death doesn't mean death...hell doesn't mean hell...Jesus isn't Jesus...God isn't God...obedience doesn't mean obedience...salvation isn't salvation...hell isn't hell...and purple isn't purple!!!...(nothing means what it says)...along with the hundreds of other ways you attempt to re-write the Bible in your own "wisdom"......trying desperately to prove that the Bible, the Word of God, (which I hold very dear to my heart), is nothing more than a piece of junk that needs to be thrown in the garbage!....SPARE ME!

Well...I just want you and everyone else to know this:

I stand upon the Word of the Living God in Heaven...and this Sacred Book, as far as I am concerned IS the Divinely Inspired Word of God and NOTHING less. I believe that the KJV 1611 is the closest Translation we have available to us today to the original Manuscripts...this Bible begins with the most beautiful 14 pages of "Notes to the Reader" concerning the "translators" themselves, in their own words, explaining their relationship with God, Jesus Christ and The Precious Holy Spirit...written by the translators themselves...you can feel the love, honor and respect to and for God they had, in translating from the original Manuscripts...none of these other "New Age" Bibles have this...as a matter of fact, these newer translations make multiple attempts in letting the reader know that their aim was to help the reader understand "their more 'comfortable' version" of what God's Word "really" said......no thank you...

...and I know there will be much said about this...but honestly, I truly don't care what anyone has to say about how I feel.

What I hold in my own heart to be truth has been revealed to me through the years of my life by and through the Holy Spirit...what has been revealed to me, YOU nor anyone else can take away...EVER.
Verna, I am glad you stand upon the word so strongly. And I agree with a lot of your posts, some I disagree with, and only God knows your heart.

I won't bother debating the scriptures with you, people can do the research themselves. This thread is more philisophical in nature, and simply asks you to answer this question honestly:

If torture is wrong, how can it be right for God to do torture forever?

And no cop-out answers about how its not God doing the torture... Baloney. If there is an eternal torture chamber, then God created it, knowing full well He would leave some of His own creation in there for eternity.


Quote:
Whether "eternal destruction"...and "death" means eternal torture or complete DEATH...I am not 100% sure...I tend to lean toward the latter...because eternal destruction, to me, means ETERNAL DESTRUCTION...DEATH...DEAD...DONE.

Do I think this is good? HELL NO! It stinks for the one it appies to!...and I don't want ANYONE to suffer this separation from God...BUT SOME WILL! How do I know? Because the Word of God says so...but here we go AGAIN!...You claim the Bible doesn't say what it says......POINTLESS!!!
If you think "eternal hell" is simply annihilation/death/gone, then this thread is not for you. I applaud your honesty in realizing that eternal torture is neither good nor moral. And to attribute the concept of eternal torture to our almight loving God and creator is blasphemy in its highest form.

If you do believe annihilation is likely, I ask you to consider this: Does Jesus really defeat death if God lets most of His creation die forever?

Quote:
His judgement is righteous and just....He is a righteous Judge...and who are you to say to question your Creator..."Why?"..
I encourage you to look up the meanings of these words in a dictionary, Verna:

judgment
justice
righteous

Quote:
I'll tell you what legoman, when he says to you..."Go, I never knew you..."...what are you going to say to Him in response? You'll say nothing...you will not even be able to stand in His presence...why?...because He is God!!!
So you have already judged that I'm going to hell/annihilation? Because I think my Father in heaven is too loving and would not torture anyone for eternity? I humbly ask you to consider that you do not know my heart, just as I do not know your heart.

If God does say "I never knew you" to me, I am confident He will change me into what He desires, with full assurance of His infinite love and mercy. You are right I won't be standing. I ask you the same question in return: what will you do if God says to you "I never knew you"?
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:37 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,458,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
No, it is your cop-out for not repenting of your unbelief! You turned from the truth and believed the lie.
You want to find things to justify your sin of unbelief and that is why the repetitious threads of your obsessions with hell, torture, etc.!
It is your conscious accusing you!! Live with it or repent!

Exactly, people do not believe that Jesus will accomplish his purpose 100%.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:41 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,923,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
No, it is your cop-out for not repenting of your unbelief! You turned from the truth and believed the lie.
You want to find things to justify your sin of unbelief and that is why the repetitious threads of your obsessions with hell, torture, etc.!
It is your conscious accusing you!! Live with it or repent!

What "sin of unbelief"?!? According to you "unbelief in hell" will send you to hell? I don't think so.

I believe Christ is my Lord and Savior who came to save the world, which includes me & you. I hate to break this to you, belief in hell is irrelevant to your salvation Latte'Chic.

"justify my sin of unbelief"!?!? My unbelief in hell?!?? That is what condemns a person to hell?!? You are not making any sense Latte. Christ is the only thing that saves. Not "belief in hell".
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:45 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,923,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That is neither here nor there, just what is the greater good? how is your greater good better than my greater good? what is your authority to determine this?
Man torturing man is not good because the alleged "greater good" is not reliably achieved.

Quote:
Again you are asking a question from a finite existence, now if you are asking me, Can I see in scripture God receiving the glory for punishing sin that has offended an eternal God eternally with people having to pay eternally for their sins because they offended an eternal God eternally in hell then the answer is a resounding, YES!
...
That's your opinion and again with the greater good....God does things for His glory regardless if we understand it or thinks it is good or bad.

So God is glorious when people are tortured for eternity. I should have guessed it would come down to this, this is the logical conclusion of Calvinism, which is completely immoral, according to God's (not man's) standard of love.

God is love, and love keeps no record of wrongs, and is not self-serving.

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Old 09-24-2009, 09:47 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,923,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Really? Another one of these UR threads? What a yawn. I mean, really, why would anyone want to keep bringing up the news that Jesus Christ is the Savior of all people over and over and over again? Just because Paul says that God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, that in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation, does that really mean you need to keep harping on this? Is it really such a big deal being entrusted with the message that we would want to spend all this time making sure we're sharing the message without perverting it, or defaming the character of the God who entrusted us with it?

I don't know, lego. I think you should just get a life.


Thanks Pleroo, you are right, I can't stop proclaiming the good news and proclaiming the truth! God is love, and love covers all wrongs! I can't stop ministering this message of reconcilliation!

Sorry this is repetetive to some people.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Arizona High Desert
4,574 posts, read 3,277,328 times
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Of course it is a good thing, especially for Christians. If God is doing the punishing, (an uber smite for the spilling of Christian seed on the ground) the sado masochistic exchange is exquisite. If a Christian is being tortured by a heathen, God will duly note the suffering, and affix 10 gold stars to the victim's roster. Amen, and Amen
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,167,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I'm calling you out in saying that I've heard it all before, and I'm tired of it


Then why do you keep coming back here?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
I believe that the KJV 1611 is the closest Translation we have available to us today to the original Manuscripts...
Anyone who has done any type of word studies from Hebrew to Greek already knows that this statement is totally false.

Perhaps you should look into the history of that Bible before you make such claims...King James was no saint.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:51 AM
 
Location: texas
2,901 posts, read 1,894,477 times
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Ok, I'm still pretty new to this site, but I am going to give my two cents worth. I feel as a Christian that torture is bad--in any form. Jesus did not torture anyone, nor should we. It is his life that we should try and emulate, not King David's, Saul's, Moses, or anyone else in the bible. Jesus showed us the way your life SHOULD be led. That is without murder, without torture, etc. Now that being said, I, as a member of the military do believe in self defense and self preservation. Have torture techniques worked in saving lives? Yes, they have. Does that make them Christian? No it does not. The human side of me says it ok to do it to save lives. The Christian side of me says no it is not. It is a delima that I live with everyday of my life. Would I torture someone to get info if I felt they had that info concerning who abducted my child or raped my wife--Let's just say I would do WHATEVER it took to ensure my child or my wife were protected and safe. My anger would overcome my normal rational. Is this a standard policy that we as a nation should be doing---No it is not.
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:57 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,458,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

If torture is wrong, how can it be right for God to do torture forever?

Well, perhaps the relationship between torture and eternal torture is not an adequate example to promote.

What did Jesus go through and was it good or not? Jesus certainly will not endure that "eternally". So where is the relationship between the bad of what Jesus endured and it's application to eternity?
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Old 09-24-2009, 09:58 AM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,734,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Man torturing man is not good because the alleged "greater good" is not reliably achieved.
lol....that's your opinion I however believe it is achieved. What is your authority on determining this

Quote:
So God is glorious when people are tortured for eternity. I should have guessed it would come down to this, this is the logical conclusion of Calvinism, which is completely immoral, according to God's (not man's) standard of love.

God is love, and love keeps no record of wrongs, and is not self-serving.
God is more than that one line you gave. My friend God gets the glory if He sent ALL of us to hell
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