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Verna, Latte'Chic, you can complain all you want, but the fact is ETers have no good answer to these questions. I'm calling you out.
VERNA PERRY, do you think torture is good?
Latte'Chic, do you think torture is good?
I see fundy already replied, he didn't respond directly, but from his answer I'm guessing he thinks torture is good? (please clarify Fundy).
But HERE IS THE POINT: If (and this might be a big if) you think torture is not good, why on earth would you think it is good that God tortures peopleeternally?
Nope.....
And God tortures no one....the individuals sin destroys and tortures them, not God!!! God has given to all the way of escape of the consequences of their sin, (darkness, unbelief) through Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
John 3:16-21
16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19.This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Oh, I thought legomans question was about eternal torture.
Quote:
Does anyone here actually think torture is a good thing?
And of course the followup question:
Is eternal torture a good thing?
He is trying to establish a precedent of eternal "torture" by using the morality argument appealing to our Christianity of torture in the world as a basis which I might add is failing miserably.
Verna, Latte'Chic, you can complain all you want, but the fact is ETers have no good answer to these questions. I'm calling you out.
I'm calling you out in saying that I've heard it all before, and I'm tired of it!
legoman...let me put it to you this way...My past experience, in answering these type of questions, serves as a reminder to me that it is pointless and to not even bother anymore. Why?...because when I quote all the scripture in the Bible that clearly states something is "eternal"...(whatever it is)...(oh, of course EXCEPT when it speaks of eternal love)......, you and those that are like-minded with you come back and post your "ages and ages upon ages in ages" junk...trying to say that eternal doesn't mean eternal...destruction doesn't mean destruction...death doesn't mean death...hell doesn't mean hell...Jesus isn't Jesus...God isn't God...obedience doesn't mean obedience...salvation isn't salvation...hell isn't hell...and purple isn't purple!!!...(nothing means what it says)...along with the hundreds of other ways you attempt to re-write the Bible in your own "wisdom"......trying desperately to prove that the Bible, the Word of God, (which I hold very dear to my heart), is nothing more than a piece of junk that needs to be thrown in the garbage!....SPARE ME!
Well...I just want you and everyone else to know this:
I stand upon the Word of the Living God in Heaven...and this Sacred Book, as far as I am concerned IS the Divinely Inspired Word of God and NOTHING less. I believe that the KJV 1611 is the closest Translation we have available to us today to the original Manuscripts...this Bible begins with the most beautiful 14 pages of "Notes to the Reader" concerning the "translators" themselves, in their own words, explaining their relationship with God, Jesus Christ and The Precious Holy Spirit...written by the translators themselves...you can feel the love, honor and respect to and for God they had, in translating from the original Manuscripts...none of these other "New Age" Bibles have this...as a matter of fact, these newer translations make multiple attempts in letting the reader know that their aim was to help the reader understand "their more 'comfortable' version" of what God's Word "really" said......no thank you...
...and I know there will be much said about this...but honestly, I truly don't care what anyone has to say about how I feel.
What I hold in my own heart to be truth has been revealed to me through the years of my life by and through the Holy Spirit...what has been revealed to me, YOU nor anyone else can take away...EVER.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
VERNA PERRY, do you think torture is good?
Whether "eternal destruction"...and "death" means eternal torture or complete DEATH...I am not 100% sure...I tend to lean toward the latter...because eternal destruction, to me, means ETERNAL DESTRUCTION...DEATH...DEAD...DONE.
Do I think this is good? HELL NO! It stinks for the one it appies to!...and I don't want ANYONE to suffer this separation from God...BUT SOME WILL! How do I know? Because the Word of God says so...but here we go AGAIN!...You claim the Bible doesn't say what it says......POINTLESS!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Latte'Chic, do you think torture is good?
I see fundy already replied, he didn't respond directly, but from his answer I'm guessing he thinks torture is good? (please clarify Fundy).
But HERE IS THE POINT: If (and this might be a big if) you think torture is not good, why on earth would you think it is good that God tortures peopleeternally?
His judgement is righteous and just....He is a righteous Judge...and who are you to say to question your Creator..."Why?"..I'll tell you what legoman, when he says to you..."Go, I never knew you..."...what are you going to say to Him in response? You'll say nothing...you will not even be able to stand in His presence...why?...because He is God!!!
He is trying to establish a precedent of eternal "torture" by using the morality of torture in the world as a basis which I might add is miserably failing.
He is trying to establish a precedent of eternal "torture" by using the morality of torture in the world as a basis which I might add is miserably failing.
There are several parts here:
Does man torturing another man provide a greater good? ie. helped stopped further 911 attacks. I think this is very debatable. Torture in the middle ages led to all kinds of people admitting they were witches, so they were then burned at the stake. I don't think "modern" methods of torture (water-boarding/depravation/whatever) are any better. But this is really a whole separate debate. You are bringing up the "greater good" argument, which is really very debatable.
What we are really talking about is brutal savage torture. Holding a man in flames. Can a greater good really come from that if a man does that? I fully acknowledge God could bring a greater good about by holding a man in flames for a finite period of time. God can bring a greater good about from anything finite, because that finite "bad" thing will eventually end.
Now, the real question - if He purposely holds a man in flames for eternity, what is the alleged greater good that is achieved? There can be no greater good realized, because the torture never ends.
I'm calling you out in saying that I've heard it all before, and I'm tired of it!
legoman...let me put it to you this way...My past experience, in answering these type of questions, serves as a reminder to me that it is pointless and to not even bother anymore. Why?...because when I quote all the scripture in the Bible that clearly states something is "eternal"...(whatever it is)...(oh, of course EXCEPT when it speaks of eternal love)......, you and those that are like-minded with you come back and post your "ages and ages upon ages in ages" junk...trying to say that eternal doesn't mean eternal...destruction doesn't mean destruction...death doesn't mean death...hell doesn't mean hell...Jesus isn't Jesus...God isn't God...obedience doesn't mean obedience...salvation isn't salvation...hell isn't hell...and purple isn't purple!!!...(nothing means what it says)...along with the hundreds of other ways you attempt to re-write the Bible in your own "wisdom"......trying desperately to prove that the Bible, the Word of God, (which I hold very dear to my heart), is nothing more than a piece of junk that needs to be thrown in the garbage!....SPARE ME!
Well...I just want you and everyone else to know this:
I stand upon the Word of the Living God in Heaven...and this Sacred Book, as far as I am concerned IS the Divinely Inspired Word of God and NOTHING less. I believe that the KJV 1611 is the closest Translation we have available to us today to the original Manuscripts...this Bible begins with the most beautiful 14 pages of "Notes to the Reader" concerning the "translators" themselves, in their own words, explaining their relationship with God, Jesus Christ and The Precious Holy Spirit...written by the translators themselves...you can feel the love, honor and respect to and for God they had, in translating from the original Manuscripts...none of these other "New Age" Bibles have this...as a matter of fact, these newer translations make multiple attempts in letting the reader know that their aim was to help the reader understand "their more 'comfortable' version" of what God's Word "really" said......no thank you...
...and I know there will be much said about this...but honestly, I truly don't care what anyone has to say about how I feel.
What I hold in my own heart to be truth has been revealed to me through the years of my life by and through the Holy Spirit...what has been revealed to me, YOU nor anyone else can take away...EVER.
Whether "eternal destruction"...and "death" means eternal torture or complete DEATH...I am not 100% sure...I tend to lean toward the latter...because eternal destruction, to me, means ETERNAL DESTRUCTION...DEATH...DEAD...DONE.
Do I think this is good? HELL NO! It stinks for the one it applies to!...and I don't want ANYONE to suffer this separation from God...BUT SOME WILL! How do I know? Because the Word of God says so...but here we go AGAIN!...You claim the Bible doesn't say what it says......POINTLESS!!!
His judgement is righteous and just....He is a righteous Judge...and who are you to say to question your Creator..."Why?"..I'll tell you what legoman, when he says to you..."Go, I never knew you..."...what are you going to say to Him in response? You'll say nothing...you will not even be able to stand in His presence...why?...because He is God!!!
Nope.....
And God tortures no one....the individuals sin destroys and tortures them, not God!!! God has given to all the way of escape of the consequences of their sin, (darkness, unbelief) through Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
John 3:16-21
16. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
19.This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
This is the cop-out answer. God doesn't torture anyone. He just built this alleged torture chamber, and lets people stay in there for eternity. Its really not God's fault. What power does God have anyway? God only created everything, but since then creation has been out of control and God is powerless to stop it right? How can it possibily be God's responsibility that anyone would be tortured forever?
This is the cop-out answer. God doesn't torture anyone. He just built this alleged torture chamber, and lets people stay in there for eternity. Its really not God's fault. What power does God have anyway? God only created everything, but since then creation has been out of control and God is powerless to stop it right? How can it possibily be God's responsibility that anyone would be tortured forever?
No, it is your cop-out for not repenting of your unbelief! You turned from the truth and believed the lie.
You want to find things to justify your sin of unbelief and that is why the repetitious threads of your obsessions with hell, torture, etc.!
It is your conscious accusing you!! Live with it or repent!
Does man torturing another man provide a greater good? ie. helped stopped further 911 attacks. I think this is very debatable. Torture in the middle ages led to all kinds of people admitting they were witches, so they were then burned at the stake. I don't think "modern" methods of torture (water-boarding/depravation/whatever) are any better. But this is really a whole separate debate. You are bringing up the "greater good" argument, which is really very debatable.
That is neither here nor there, just what is the greater good? how is your greater good better than my greater good? what is your authority to determine this?
Quote:
What we are really talking about is brutal savage torture. Holding a man in flames. Can a greater good really come from that if a man does that? I fully acknowledge God could bring a greater good about by holding a man in flames for a finite period of time. God can bring a greater good about from anything finite, because that finite "bad" thing will eventually end.
Again you are asking a question from a finite existence, now if you are asking me, Can I see in scripture God receiving the glory for punishing sin that has offended an eternal God eternally with people having to pay eternally for their sins because they offended an eternal God eternally in hell then the answer is a resounding, YES!
Quote:
Now, the real question - if He purposely holds a man in flames for eternity, what is the alleged greater good that is achieved? There can be no greater good realized, because the torture never ends.
That's your opinion and again with the greater good....God does things for His glory regardless if we understand it or thinks it is good or bad.
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..., you and those that are like-minded with you come back and post your "ages and ages upon ages in ages" junk...trying to say that eternal doesn't mean eternal...destruction doesn't mean destruction...death doesn't mean 
death...hell doesn't mean hell...Jesus isn't Jesus...God isn't God...obedience doesn't mean obedience...salvation isn't salvation...hell isn't hell...and purple isn't 
purple!!!...(nothing means what it says)...along with the hundreds of other ways you attempt to re-write the Bible in your own 
"wisdom"...
...trying desperately to prove that the Bible, the Word of God, (which I hold very dear to my heart), is nothing more than a piece of junk that needs to be thrown in the garbage!....SPARE ME!
NO! It stinks for the one it appies to!...and I don't want ANYONE to suffer this separation from God...BUT SOME WILL! How do I know? Because the Word of God says so...but here we go AGAIN!...You claim the Bible doesn't say what it says...
