U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-25-2009, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,813,090 times
Reputation: 496

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
That's fine agree to disagree. We are not saved by them but we can not go to heaven without them. We feel the same way about each other it seems. No body truly believes deep down all we have to do is say we believe and sit around and do nothing for God. I will be a servant for Him and walk the walk. That is what the bible teaches in James 2 very plainly. Even in eph. 2:8 just read 2 verses later "created unto good works". O well, Jesus is going to judge us based on works and what we have done (2 Cor. 5:10, Rev. 20:12-13). There is no way around it. I would hate to disappoint Him with "sorry did not know you actually wanted me to do something". Does that not seem ridiculous?
What is your motivation for being free from sin and doing works?

Is your motivation to get to heaven or be saved from hell?

I believe you are both wrong and let me show you why.

Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

So when you are paid for working it is not a gift. If you trust God but do no work your faith is credited to you as righteousness.

Then Paul goes on to say that blessed are those whose sin is not counted against them.

Romans 4: 9-10
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

The righteousness is credited before the circumcision!

Deut. 30: 6
The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

So your righteousness is credited before the circumcision and God will credit you and circumcise your heart so you may love him and LIVE (be saved, right?)

What is it then that you must do?

Well Israel had a hard time with this:
Rom. 9:32
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

So Paul says of Israel:
Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

They stumbled but can recover and because they stumbled salvation (righteousness) has come to all those not Jews (uncircumcised) as well as those who are Jews (circumcised).

Therefore God gave freely his gift of righteousness (salvation) to all, and it is given before you can believe or have faith or do works. Not only that but God will circumcise your heart. He will draw you to him.

We can do nothing, but where exactly do works come into play...

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-

Grace means pardon. God's gift of righteousness, salvation, and grace is not a choice it is given freely and he will do the work to draw all men unto him.

Psalm 66:5
Come and see what God has done, how awesome his works in man's behalf!
1 Cr. 12:6
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
So sit back and enjoy the good news because your motivation for being righteous is that God has done an awesome thing for all who don't deserve it.

1 John 4:12; 18-19
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-25-2009, 01:26 PM
 
159 posts, read 131,905 times
Reputation: 28
Right if your motivations for works are off they are vain I can go with that. The context in all this is doing works humbly as a servant. I have read all these verses and they are making it clear that faith is the key and it is. The main thing I want to get across is that no man can go to heaven without ever doing anything for God. That is saying we can go to heaven without worshipping, believing, visiting, teaching, prayin, etc. Can not be done based on the bible. You can not ignore James 2 as some want to. That faith in all these verses must be alive!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 02:24 PM
 
159 posts, read 131,905 times
Reputation: 28
Now I have a question for anybody who wants to answer or discuss. On this same topic, can anyone give an example of someone under the New Law being saved without baptism? Or is it part of being saved via remission of sins by the blood of Jesus in the watery grave? If one says we do not need baptism cause it is a work or whatever, who was saved without it that was under the New Law?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 06:44 PM
 
320 posts, read 266,144 times
Reputation: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
I don't take much to heart, and laugh at your post. It doesn't bother me when someone tries to call me something, when they don't even know or understand what is in scripture. The heart, ok, Like I said, God already said what the heart will get you.

Wisdom, you don't even sound like you have knowledge, or even simple comprehension of scripture. People look at one word and totally mess up what the scripture was saying. Then in the past post you say that I said you have to have commitment to faith, now it seems that you can't even read. LOL, foolish trying to tell somone else something, who can't even read a post.

The blind, non-reader can't lead anyone.
You are more then welcome to express your feelings on here and I'm real sorry you feel that way, bitterness can be very distasteful when you spue out hatred in your choice of words...maybe I was wrong to say that your wisdom isn't from God in what you say....maybe it is wisdom from God in the above comments you've made and how you teach and witness to us on CD.

I have a lot too learn and I'm still growing in my relationship with God and in knowledge of his Word...30yrs doesn't mean I know it all, It just means I know enough.....Its very clear that you find enjoyment in tearing others down so it lifts you to higher ground. So, I say, you must be a better person than I am....

God bless your heart miss shawn I did learn something from you,. Being carefull in how we treat others in the presence of Almighty God...I learn something new everyday in how to be Christ Like!

take care!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 07:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,813,090 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
Now I have a question for anybody who wants to answer or discuss. On this same topic, can anyone give an example of someone under the New Law being saved without baptism? Or is it part of being saved via remission of sins by the blood of Jesus in the watery grave? If one says we do not need baptism cause it is a work or whatever, who was saved without it that was under the New Law?
John stated that he baptized with water but there is one greater than he that baptizes with the holy spirit.

Did Jesus ever baptize anyone in water?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 07:32 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,693,861 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightynerd View Post
You are more then welcome to express your feelings on here and I'm real sorry you feel that way, bitterness can be very distasteful when you spue out hatred in your choice of words...maybe I was wrong to say that your wisdom isn't from God in what you say....maybe it is wisdom from God in the above comments you've made and how you teach and witness to us on CD.

I have a lot too learn and I'm still growing in my relationship with God and in knowledge of his Word...30yrs doesn't mean I know it all, It just means I know enough.....Its very clear that you find enjoyment in tearing others down so it lifts you to higher ground. So, I say, you must be a better person than I am....

God bless your heart miss shawn I did learn something from you,. Being carefull in how we treat others in the presence of Almighty God...I learn something new everyday in how to be Christ Like!

take care!
No, I don't place myself above others, but I will be honest with people and speak my mind. I never sugar coat anything, maybe that is a trait that God wants me to work on.

But when someone points something out that I wrote, and say that I am wrong, to only read what they wrote and that be wrong, and quote something I didn't say, want work with me, and trust me, I am the type of person what will give you the same dose of what you point at me.

Sorry, I am not bitter, I am only speaking my mind. Oh, I don't get enjoyment in tearing someone down, I simply speak my mind. I refuse to lie, when I would rather be honest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 07:47 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,813,090 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Of course you have to believe and have faith. God says that you can't even please Him without faith. We have to repent daily, and of course be baptized.

When I talk about the heart, I am implying, going toward God. In my opinion, your heart has to be right, I mean, if you don't want God, you simply want come to Him. Something in your heart has to change to even want to have Him over your life as your God.
You are very nice and civil as long as he is asking questions of you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
LOL, you don't understand what you write. Demons can pray, but does that mean that they serve the Lord. Give me scripture that says that prayer is going to get you into heaven. LOL, the very scripture, of Romans, is saying that you must have faith. LOL, just as I said.

You can open your mouth daily and not confess the Lord as your Savior, but without faith you can't please the Lord,. Prayer is communication between you and the Lord. Prayer along will not get you into heaven. Sorry, if you think so.

You poor thing do you not understand what this scripture is saying. You are confessing that Jesus is your Lord, and your heart along is not getting you into heaven, Faith and Jesus is. I guess you didn't see the believe and confess part. LOL, and you think that you have wisdom, please.

Show, me scripture that says that prayer, alone will get you into heaven and your heart will get you there?

It seems like you are trusting on the heart. LOL This is what God has to say about the Heart;

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately
wicked: who can know it?"
Jeremiah 17:9, KJV

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony,
slander.

So, your heart along want get you there, but trust yours and see where that gets you!!

I have read over every scripture about the heart and none of them says anything about the heart getting you into heaven.
Getting kinda sarcastic....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
My interpretation is not misleading, you just want your own interpretation. No, you poor thing, you quote scripture and don't even see what you are quoting.

LOL, you dont even fit the bill to even interpret a scripture, much less tell me. You don't have to trust my wisdom, I trust and follow what God's Word says.

LOL, Jesus even said that some Who call Him Lord, Lord, will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Getting judgmental and seems haughty with the LOL....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Exactly, it was her faith. I'm glad someone here actually takes the Word for what it says.
I can see you rolling your eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
I don't take much to heart, and laugh at your post. It doesn't bother me when someone tries to call me something, when they don't even know or understand what is in scripture. The heart, ok, Like I said, God already said what the heart will get you.

Wisdom, you don't even sound like you have knowledge, or even simple comprehension of scripture. People look at one word and totally mess up what the scripture was saying. Then in the past post you say that I said you have to have commitment to faith, now it seems that you can't even read. LOL, foolish trying to tell somone else something, who can't even read a post.

The blind, non-reader can't lead anyone.
That's just outright mockery and mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
No, I don't place myself above other, but I will be honest with people and speak my mind. I never sugar coat anything, maybe that is a trait that God wants me to work on.

But when someone points something out that I wrote, and say that I am wrong, to only read what they wrote and that be wrong, and quote something I didn't say, want work with me, and trust me, I am the type of person what will give you the same dose of what you point at me.

Sorry, I am not bitter, I am only speaking my mind. Oh, I don't get enjoyment in tearing someone down, I simply speak my mind. I refuse to lie, when I would rather be honest.
This is how we see your posts (not looking at the other guy)...
They get progressively more defensive. Read through the posts and your responses.
I thought we were supposed to turn the other cheek, not poke out an eye for an eye.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,693,861 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
You are very nice and civil as long as he is asking questions of you...



Getting kinda sarcastic....



Getting judgmental and seems haughty with the LOL....



I can see you rolling your eyes.



That's just outright mockery and mean.



This is how we see your posts (not looking at the other guy)...
They get progressively more defensive. Read through the posts and your responses.
I thought we were supposed to turn the other cheek, not poke out an eye for an eye.
We are suppose to turn the other cheek, but like I said, God is working that out in me. I admit my faults, to bad others hide and want uncover theirs. We have to many people lieing to people and themselves. We all have faults and I don't cover up mine. A person that covers is a lier and a deceiver. God is working out my so called snappyness. Others hide behind this computer screen, when they know, if they get slapped they are going to slap you back,.

Lets, get real, we are to be like Christ, but He has to take things out of us first, and alot of people are walking with fakeness all over them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,273 posts, read 3,700,942 times
Reputation: 881
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaltonG View Post
This idea that we say a prayer and accept Jesus into our heart for salvation I can not find anywhere in the bible. Could someone please show the scripture and an example of someone who was saved by a prayer?
The scripture: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)

Example of someone: Me, Jesus help me! I need you right now!

Results: Done.


Come, it is'nt as complicated as some would have it, He is still in the saving business. Same God: Yesterday, today and forever.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-25-2009, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,813,090 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
The scripture: Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)

Example of someone: Me, Jesus help me! I need you right now!

Results: Done.


Come, it is'nt as complicated as some would have it, He is still in the saving business. Same God: Yesterday, today and forever.
So how do we get saved?

Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

So when you are paid for working it is not a gift. If you trust God but do no work your faith is credited to you as righteousness.

Then Paul goes on to say that blessed are those whose sin is not counted against them.

Romans 4: 9-10
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
The righteousness is credited before the circumcision!

Deut. 30: 6
The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

So your righteousness is credited before the circumcision and God will credit you and circumcise your heart so you may love him and LIVE (be saved, right?)

What is it then that you must do?

Well Israel had a hard time with this:
Rom. 9:32
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

So Paul says of Israel:
Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

They stumbled but can recover and because they stumbled salvation (righteousness) has come to all those not Jews (uncircumcised) as well as those who are Jews (circumcised).

Therefore God gave freely his gift of righteousness (salvation) to all, and it is given before you can believe or have faith or do works. Not only that but God will circumcise your heart. He will draw you to him.

We can do nothing, but where exactly do works come into play...

Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
Grace means pardon. God's gift of righteousness, salvation, and grace is not a choice it is given freely and he will do the work to draw all men unto him.

Psalm 66:5
Come and see what God has done, how awesome his works in man's behalf!
1 Cr. 12:6
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
So sit back and enjoy the good news because your motivation for being righteous is that God has done an awesome thing for all who don't deserve it.

1 John 4:12; 18-19
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. We love because he first loved us.



Romans 5: 19-20
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Some say this is proof that not all will be saved.. How many were made sinners by the one man? (hint: all have sinned Rom. 3:23) and how many are made righteous? (hint: equal to the many that are sinners). The amount of those made sinners is directly proportionate to the amount of those made righteous.

The bolded part of the passage states that the amount of sin is directly proportional to the amount of grace. Grace increases at the same rate as sin.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

So Paul is saying that just because the amount of grace increases proportionately to the amount of sin doesn't mean you should sin to get more grace. We died to sin and know it isn't worth living in. Paul is saying that sure you CAN sin and grace will increase to keep up with your sinning but should you? NO...

All are saved. The gift of salvation was given. God gave it to everyone he foreknew.. All are saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top