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Old 09-24-2009, 12:55 PM
 
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God is love. This is a powerful statement. This means that not only does God show love to us, not only does He love us, He is the love that we feel when He loves us.

When we show love for another, that is God's love working through us. God Himself is working through us.

God is love. Love is God. Consider:

Love makes the impossible, possible.
Love covers all wrongs.
Love never fails.


And of course 1 Cor 13: Love is kind, patient, keeps no record of wrongs, always protects, hopes, trusts, and perseveres. Love is selfless.

These are all attributes of God. In all things God is doing, He is showing His love. Do you know what the really awesome part is? God will always be these things. God will always be patient. God will always protect.


Now what about His other attributes? Righteousness, Wrathful, Just, Vengeful, Jealous, etc.

Righteousness is goodness. It means to do the right thing: the right thing is to love. That is God's commandment, and the commandments are fulfilled by love.

Just: God show justice by giving a fair and proper punishment or reward for deeds done. This is the law of reaping and sowing. Each man will receive according to what He has done. This is fair and righteous, and loving. Justice will be served.

Wrath: God shows wrath, therefore He is wrathful, but He is not wrath itself. God shows wrath as part of His justice. God's wrath will end one day when justice has been served. That is love.

Vengeance: God performs vengeance by correcting the wrongs that were done. All will be set right, every tear will be wiped from every face, and there will be no more pain or death. That is righteous and loving.

Jealous: God is jealous in that He allows no other idols or gods before Him. Because of God's righteousness and love, there is no need for other idols or gods. All will give up their idols when they realize God's love for them.


So you can see, all of God's attributes (righteousness, just, wrathful, vengeful, jealous) are in complete harmony with his essence, which is love.
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:59 PM
 
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So, what does it mean that God is love? Love is an attribute of God. Love is a core aspect of God’s character, His Person. God’s love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of God’s attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right. God is the perfect example of true love. Amazingly, God has given those who receive His Son Jesus as their personal Savior the ability to love as He does, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12 (NIV)
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—


1 John 3:1 (NIV)
How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.


1 John 3:23–24 (NIV)
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
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Old 09-24-2009, 01:14 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
So, what does it mean that God is love? Love is an attribute of God. Love is a core aspect of Godís character, His Person. Godís love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of Godís attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right.

I agree. That is why I can know with confidence when I read a verse like "God creates evil", I know He does this for a good reason. Evil is a necessary for a temporary time, for our development into children of God. But evil will be removed eventually, as that is the right and loving thing to do ultimately.

Likewise when we view God's wrath. We know explicitly from scripture that God's wrath ends. God's wrath is necessary for a time, while we are developing into children of God. It is necessary for justice, judgment, and punishment, but those things too are also only needed while we are developing into the image of God.

But it all comes back to love. When we are polished and honed into the perfect image of God, we will be love ourselves. Patient, protecting, kind, selfless, ... That is who we are to become.

That is the purpose for evil, and the resultant justice, punishment and wrath that must follow. So we can be formed into God's image, which is love.

Love is not just an attribute of God. It is God.
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:56 AM
 
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My big question is why do some people think God is not showing love when He is showing His wrath and justice? His wrath and justice is done out of love. It is done for a loving and good (righteous) purpose, because all of His ways are righteous.

Do people really believe this?:

Love makes the impossible, possible.
Love covers all wrongs.
Love never fails.


Since God is love, we can also say:

God makes the impossible, possible.
God covers all wrongs.
God never fails.


This is our hope and faith.
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:39 AM
 
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That's a loaded question.

The question really is why does God hate things? God hates things that are contrary to His nature. God is Holy, pure and righteous. God is holy and hates sin. If He did not hate sin, He would not be holy. God is love, but He is also wrath, justice and vengeance. But His wrath and His justice and vengeance are holy as well. God's love is holy. There He cannot love everyone ALL the time no matter what they do, (God loves a man who is raping, murdering, dismemembering throwing in the trash a little girl?) God loves righteousness and holiness and hates sin and evil. If He did not, He would not be God.

So why would God love us since we are all sinners, wicked in His sight? because of Jesus. God had to pour out ALL His wrath and vengeance on His Son so that He could pour ALL His love and mercy on us. Jesus Christ became sin for us on the cross and if we receive Jesus Christ as our Lord, true personal saviour, trust and surrender in Him and His word than we are covered by the blood of Christ and seen righteous by God but if we don't then God's wrath remains on us because there is no other substitution, no other covering, no shield to deflect God's wrath.
No one is saying, God doesn't love but don't fool people and tell them that no matter what we do that God is not angry at us or loves us ALL the time, that is not true. God is love but a Holy love not a human, sappy, hippie love and He shows that Holy love by no matter what we have done that He gives us every opportunity to repent (even that rapist who murdered the little girl) because He sacrificed His Son as an offering for ALL of us so that we can avoid His wrath which remains on ALL us until we put on the covering of Christ blood. So as you can see God's love does not conflict with His wrath-the two harmonize like the rest of His attributes and God does not go against His nature. He does not love us in a cute and cudily sort of way because we are not cute and far from cudily, it is a Holy love.

(Proverbs 6:16-19)
16There are six things which the LORD hates,Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:17Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,And hands that shed innocent blood,18A heart that devises wicked plans,Feet that run rapidly to evil, 19A false witness who utters lies,And one who spreads strife among brothers.

(Psalm 7:10-12)
10My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.
11God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. 12If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-25-2009 at 09:06 AM..
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:19 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
God is love. This is a powerful statement. This means that not only does God show love to us, not only does He love us, He is the love that we feel when He loves us.

When we show love for another, that is God's love working through us. God Himself is working through us.

God is love. Love is God. Consider:

Love makes the impossible, possible.
Love covers all wrongs.
Love never fails.


And of course 1 Cor 13: Love is kind, patient, keeps no record of wrongs, always protects, hopes, trusts, and perseveres. Love is selfless.

These are all attributes of God. In all things God is doing, He is showing His love. Do you know what the really awesome part is? God will always be these things. God will always be patient. God will always protect.
You should have stopped here to retain any credibility in understanding God. Trying to justify the primitive misunderstandings and descriptions of that heinous OT Jehovah produced under the "veil" that Christ came to remove is futile. Only JESUS'S attributes reveal the TRUE NATURE of God. Jesus was not jealous of anyone, did not exhibit wrath by "smiting" anyone, was not vengeful toward anyone . . . (His rebukes of the Pharisees, etc. were NOT in any way born of anger or vengeance . . . they were corrections and descriptions of their acts.
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:24 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You should have stopped here to retain any credibility in understanding God. Trying to justify the primitive misunderstandings and descriptions of that heinous OT Jehovah produced under the "veil" that Christ came to remove is futile. Only JESUS'S attributes reveal the TRUE NATURE of God. Jesus was not jealous of anyone, did not exhibit wrath by "smiting" anyone, was not vengeful toward anyone . . . (His rebukes of the Pharisees, etc. were NOT in any way born of anger or vengeance . . . they were corrections and descriptions of their acts.
Why the attitude Mystic? I'm trying my best to understand God just as anyone else. Are you saying the OT God is not the NT God?

If you deny God shows wrath, you won't get anywhere.

The point is God does show wrath, but it is out of love, and like you said it is for correction. Likewise with vengeance. God's wrath and vengeance are not like a human's carnal wrath or vengeance.

Peace...
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:43 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,411,663 times
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Default God is love, BUT...

God is love, BUT He hates sinners.
God is love, BUT He also shows wrath.
God is love, BUT He also must be just.
God is love, BUT He won't save everyone.


People always say "God is love, BUT..." and then go on to give some excuse why He is not love. Fundy even says it above "God is love, BUT he is also wrath, justice, and vengeance." Sorry Fundy, God is not wrath. God is not vengeance. God shows those things but He is not those things.

"God is love, BUT..." is a very unscriptural term. You will not find that phrase in scripture. God is love. PERIOD.

When someone uses the word "BUT", they are describing a difference or an opposite that is mutually exclusive. For example, "I would love to come for dinner, BUT I have to work late". I cannot do both so I can only choose to do one.

So when someone says God is love, BUT.... they are saying God cannot be loving and also the other thing at the same time. This is not true, because God's very essence is love. He cannot be anything other than love. He does show those other attributes through His love though. Like I mentioned above, God's justice, wrath, vengeance and righteousness are all done through His love.

What about God's hate? YES, even God's hate is done out of love. God's hate is not like a man's pure hatred for hatred's sake. God hates sin and those who work iniquity. So what does God do? He destroys the sin, and destroys those who work iniquity. The sin is destroyed by Jesus finished work on the cross, and the workers of iniquity are destroyed when they are converted through Christ to be righteous.

Eventually there will be no sin and no sinners. Then all will do God's will and God will be all in all. That all comes out of God's love. God tells us to love our enemies, and He demonstrates this by loving His enemies.

What about Fundy's example of a horrible monster rapist sinner? This person Fundy describes sounds pretty ungodly. Lets see what scripture says:

Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


Christ died for the ungodly! Christ loved us while we were still sinners! We are all ungodly! There is your answer Fundy. Does God love the wicked sin that the ungodly do? No of course not. That is why He destroys the sin and the sinner by converting the sinner into a righteous servant.

That's what God's love does.

God is love. Period.
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:48 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

People always say "God is love, BUT..." and then go on to give some excuse why He is not love. Fundy even says it above "God is love, BUT he is also wrath, justice, and vengeance." Sorry Fundy, God is not wrath. God is not vengeance. God shows those things but He is not those things.
Quote:
God shows those things but He is not those things
Do you actually read what you type??????

I sin but I am not a sinner
I lie but I am not a lyer
I love but I am not a lover
I murder but I am not a murderer
I steal but I am not a thief

What you think or believe is irrelevant. I showed you scripture. You can't ignore it as hard as you try. I am sorry but your universalism is causing you to be bias you want to ignore by saying, He shows wrath but somehow through His wrath is love which absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.

God does not enjoy His wrath on us, it saddens Him but it must be done because He is a just, vengeful God. All Holy attributes.

God is all these things, one attribute DOES NOT overshadow another attribute. You are speaking of a different god. I am saying, God is all these things and uses them accordinaly in righteousness and holiness and leaving it at that but you go on further with no scriptural support to show some hippie love that is neither biblical nor holy. You say one attribute overshadows another. The attributes you like that is. You are unable to separate negative humanistic wrath, anger, venegaful with God's holy attributes of wrath etc....

What verse is that?

God is consistent, all His attributes are consistent, it does not end, He is an eternal God so ALL His attributes are eternal.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-25-2009 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 09-25-2009, 02:56 PM
 
37,579 posts, read 25,282,626 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Why the attitude Mystic? I'm trying my best to understand God just as anyone else. Are you saying the OT God is not the NT God?
I am saying the DESCRIPTIONS and attributes given to the OT God were misunderstandings under the "veil" and do NOT REFLECT the TRUE NATURE of God . . . JESUS DOES.
Quote:
If you deny God shows wrath, you won't get anywhere.
If you believe God shows wrath you do not understand God (or have not met your inner Jesus).
Quote:
The point is God does show wrath, but it is out of love, and like you said it is for correction. Likewise with vengeance. God's wrath and vengeance are not like a human's carnal wrath or vengeance.

Peace...
This is human rationalization for our weaknesses that God does not have . . . wrath and love are opposite emotions and have nothing to do with each other. Vengeance is a human weakness to salve our hurt egos. God has no such hurt ego. God has NO NEGATIVE emotions, period. ALL such negative emotions are of human origins. To attribute any of them to God is an affront and complete misunderstanding of our loving God.
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