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...And how wonderful that when you do start to understand His plan, that ALL will be reconciled.... you start to see people in a new light. A redeemed light. You cast off those ideas you had of people and start to see them and LOVE them TRULY as your brothers and sisters. What could GLORIFY GOD MORE than to develop the LOVE in your heart for ALL people??? Can I ask you... WHAT could possibly GLORIFY GOD more than for His children to develop LOVE for all people?? Isn't that the second of His 2 great commandments??? Some of those that we love may be very LOST right now... but in your heart you know they will be FOUND. He IS the Good Shepherd who will leave the 99 to go seek out and bring back the ONE that is lost.
HOW GREAT HE IS!
Thank you so much, Sparrow! Your whole post was beautiful and gave my spirits a much needed lift.
So with this view in mind, what do you see as the Lake of Fire/Second Death?
Well my stance has always been this:
Romans 8: 29-31 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Who did God "foreknow?"
Psalm 139:13-16
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
God knew all His creation before they were even formed. So He foreknew all creation. All of us are written in His book.
If you look at ch. 20 of revelation you will see that Satan, the beast, hell, and hades are thrown in the lake of fire... and also those NOT written in the book of Life... all God's creation are written in His book!
The lake of fire is obviously a cleansing fire. I have no problem with anyone saying at death we all go through the lake of fire are cleansed and then enter into the presence of God... I don't see that as a problem. But I do see that there is nothing in the bible to indicate that there are people still there. You could argue that since hades is in the lake of fire the dead are purified and then released. Nothing wrong with that either.
Some anonymous person just sent me the following comment regarding what I posted above.
Satan's strategy?
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
It's Isaiah 45:23, NOT Satan 45:23
It's Romans 14:11, NOT Satan 14:11
Phillipians 2:10, NOT satan 2:10
I have sworn by Myself...
The word has gone forth from my mouth...
in righteousness..
and will NOT TURN BACK...
that to me,
EVERY KNEE
**WILL** Bow.
EVERY TONGUE
**WILL**
swear allegiance.
This is GOOD NEWS and nothing BUT GOOD NEWS.
For those out there lurking...
I am sure it is very plain who is speaking truth in this thread, and who is under a cloud of confusion.
Truth is not hypocritical.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
The idea that God IS love, yet God will allow a lot of folks to be tortured for all eternity, or separated from Him forever is the absolute EPITOME of hypocrisy.
It's as plain as the nose on your face.
1. Perfect love casts out ALL fear. Not just some fear. It casts out ALL FEAR.
2. God is not the author of confusion.
peace.
Yes it is as plain as the nose on your face sparrow. Unfortunately what these people who are saying Jesus won't save the world don't understand is it is Satan who has deceived them. Satan is very good at twisting and deceiving people.
Take Betsey's post below. She proudly proclaims: "You want to hear what you want to hear instead of relying on the words of God"
Well Betsey, take a look at these words of God:
1. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2. God does whatever he pleases.
3. All people everywhere will swear allegiance to God.
Its sad, but Betsey doesn't believe these word of God at all, instead she only hears what she wants to hear. You need to be honest with yourself Betsey.
Romans 8: 29-31 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Who did God "foreknow?"
Psalm 139:13-16
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
God knew all His creation before they were even formed. So He foreknew all creation. All of us are written in His book.
If you look at ch. 20 of revelation you will see that Satan, the beast, hell, and hades are thrown in the lake of fire... and also those NOT written in the book of Life... all God's creation are written in His book!
I don't see that in scripture...my take on the Book of Life is that it is the book of those who die in Jesus Christ...not every person born. If you'll take a look at Rev 20:12 there were other books opened (these may be the books that unbelievers are in along with those who died before the time of Christ)...and then the Book of Life was opened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
The lake of fire is obviously a cleansing fire. I have no problem with anyone saying at death we all go through the lake of fire are cleansed and then enter into the presence of God... I don't see that as a problem. But I do see that there is nothing in the bible to indicate that there are people still there. You could argue that since hades is in the lake of fire the dead are purified and then released. Nothing wrong with that either.
IMO
Yes...I see the Lake of Fire/Second Death the same way. We are all salted with fire whether in this life or after, that is a fate no one escapes....hopefully I am being salted good while in this life so that I don't have to endure any final purification. I see the Lake of Fire as an ongoing process...that would stand to reason as unbelievers die each day...they will need purification too.
Yes!! His desire is to save all men! But how else does He enter, but by answering? YOU answering, ME answering the CONSTANT knocking?
What is wrong with you people?
Nothing. What is wrong with you Betsey? Why do you believe God is powerless to enter people's hearts? Why do you believe God will not achieve His desire to save all men? Scripture declares that God will achieve everything He desires.
Do you think God boasts about things that He cannot achieve?
Quote:
Why did He send His Son to die an earthly death if He was just going to turn around and Save everyone anyhow?
Is that what His dying on the cross means to you? Could'nt you have sent YOUR son instead, or ME mines?
This is a silly and absurd argument. Let me ask you, what was the point of God sending His son to die on the cross to be the savior of the world, if He doesn't actually save the world!?
And then you ask why bother coming if He will save everyone anyway!? HELLO! We are all saved because Christ came. He saves and will save us from sin and death. If He didn't come, we wouldn't have been saved.
Dying on the cross means He will achieve what He came to do, 100%: save the world.
Furthermore, Christ dying on the cross demonstrates His love for us. There is no greater love than sacrificing yourself for another, and there is no greater way to show this love than sacrificing your self for all mankind.
Wake up and believe the scriptures Betsey. It is sad, but you are not trusting God to do what He says He will do, so why would you even trust Him to save YOU?
IRONMAW IS COPING OUT ON RESPONDING TO THIS POST...#181...
Wow Verna, I go for a night on the town with my friends and i'm assaulted for "copping" out. I have a real life ya' know ... I cant spend every waking moment on city-data proving the insanity and false logic of organized fundamentalist and orthodox "Christianity".
Quote:
Quote:Verna If anyone rejects God's Truth upon hearing it, and they die before recieving Him, TOO LATE!! NOW YOU PROOVE THAT THEY HAVE A SECOND CHANCE AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN LAID SIX FEET UNDER!! YOU HAVE FAILED MISERABLY IN SHOWING ME WHERE IN THE BIBLE IT STATES THIS!!!
...and this is his answer...
1Pe 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel is preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit
And here we have it folks...LOOK! Ironmaws explanation...FINALLY! we get it out of him....LOL!!!!! This is too good to be true!!!
Oh, um, excuse me Ironmaw...I got a lttle excited there for a moment...but for your information...this just happens to be talking about the living who are dead spiritually...?...LOL!! ...But that's o.k....I understand....you may need to go take a laxative now............
" 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."
Quote:
posted by Verna Perry in post #178
"The Scriptures that are given time and time again, you chop away at, saying that eternity doesn't mean eternity, death doesn't mean death, forever doesn't mean forever, always doesn't mean always, ...
Well than ... We can see that you are guilty of what you say I do. I don't have to give any examples, but i will name two instances which stick out the most just for the heck of it ...
You say all things (Col 1:20) doesn't mean all things, all doesn't mean all etc (1Cr 15:22)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw There ya go, i don't know how you missed it but i have quoted it many of times as have many others. Your wrong again ...
Originally Posted by Ironmaw Learning the truth is never a waste of time. Humble yourself and let the spirit into your heart and fill you with the love of God for all things. Then you will understand why your false doctrine is not the true Gospel of Christ.
Thank you sweet Jesus!!! You truly do look after your own...I love You so much...Thank you. Verna.
You are insane if you thought i wouldn't come back and show your error. So God isn't protecting you anymore now that i have come back to destroy your little victory post? ... What were you thinking?
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-26-2009 at 12:26 PM..
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
This is not just talking about the 21st century. This started happening within years of Christ being crucified. People quickly turned back to their pagan ways, many gods, punishment in fire, eternal punishments, etc. Its still going on today.
People like to think they are the chosen one and everyone else is GOING TO GET IT! This is what itching ears is talking about.
People also like to hear feel good messages, like: say this simple prayer, and you will have eternal bliss in heaven. No judgment, no fire to go through.
The truth is all will go through the consuming fire of God's love. All need to be refined and purified. ALL WILL BE JUDGED, but it is this judgment that makes people righteous. Some of that is happening now, as we speak.
I don't see that in scripture...my take on the Book of Life is that it is the book of those who die in Jesus Christ...not every person born. If you'll take a look at Rev 20:12 there were other books opened (these may be the books that unbelievers are in along with those who died before the time of Christ)...and then the Book of Life was opened.
Yes there were other books and notice that it is the other books from which we are judged not the book of life. (12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.)
But it does seem odd to mention those not in a book being thrown somewhere if that means no one is thrown anywhere..does that make sense?
Quote:
Yes...I see the Lake of Fire/Second Death the same way. We are all salted with fire whether in this life or after, that is a fate no one escapes....hopefully I am being salted good while in this life so that I don't have to endure any final purification. I see the Lake of Fire as an ongoing process...that would stand to reason as unbelievers die each day...they will need purification too.
I totally agree with you. There is also the Lamb's book of life in Rev. 21:
25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
So only those written in the book enter into the city... Lamb's book of life refers to Christ right? so I don't know what the difference is between this and the other or if they are the same.
Bottom line is that all have to be purified to enter yet the gates are always open. So whatever it is that causes the purification, I don't really know but it does happen. Perhaps it is death itself or perhaps it is death plus the lake of fire.
Verna,
Your bolded, large print capitalizations may testiify to the strength of your FAITH in YOUR UNDERSTANDING of scripture . . . But it can neither prove nor validate whether or not YOUR UNDERSTANDING ACTUALLY IS the TRUTH . . . your FAITH notwithstanding. Relax Verna . . . your love for us all is evident, your sincerity is unquestioned, your desire to eliminate misunderstanding of God is obvious . . . but neither YOU nor YOUR UNDERSTANDING of scripture or God is INFALLIBLE . . . and others see things differently . . . but JUST as SINCERELY.
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Some of those that we love may be very LOST right now... but in your heart you know they will be FOUND. He IS the Good Shepherd who will leave the 99 to go seek out and bring back the ONE that is lost. 
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