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I said ...
To which you replied ...
This is the main point of contention that i have with the full preterist perspective. Above all my other differences of perspective, this is the one that will never be changed in my mind unless God himself works a miracle in order to accomplish it. If preterism is true then i pray God will help me with this apparent dichotomy ... I really have difficulty taking this perspective seriously without feeling insulted. I know that is not your intention, but I have suffered entirely to much in this messed up world to just accept offhandedly that evil and sin and death and suffering have been destroyed already.
Im not sure what world your living in ... Maybe things are really rosy where you are ... They are not here and never have been. I could go on and on about the various sins that i have myself been in bondage to in the past. I know the sins i still struggle with. You cant tell me sin isn't still very much a reality at this time. My brother is addicted to heroin, even though his close friend just over dosed and died on it just a few moths ago. I was once addicted to drugs and sex and alcohol. I was the victim of child abuse growing up under my mother. I was the victim of sexual molestation by my babysitter when i was 4 years old. I have had more people whom i love die violent deaths then i care to express at this time. For you to tell me that sin and death and evil are destroyed in the universe is almost like a slap in the face ... Again i know that is not your intention and i do not take it personally.
When i say i believe that sin and death and evil will be destroyed along with all pain and suffering in the universe, i mean it in a very literal way. I cannot announce the full victory of Christ over sin and death if he will allow it to continue endlessly in this world. I understand your perspective is something like an alternate reality which exists parallel to this reality wherein there is no sin or death to which we will all pass when we die. That is in my opinion the very essence of a cop out when it is said that the kosmos(the visible physical universe) will be reconciled to full harmony with God so that death and evil and sin have no more place at all in creation. This is the main reason i will never accept a full preterist view. Though i will continue to research it as it is a relevant perspective, and i want to understand more fully how other people believe so that i might better relate to them in understanding.
God bless ...
Not that it matters what I think , but just wanted to say that I'm in 100% agreement with your post. Well said.
Ahh, futurists have it so nice. They don't have to prove a thing. For them it's all somewhere out there in the future---the rapture, the antichrist, the millennial reign. Preterists, on the other hand, have to prove to the satisfaction of historians that all prophecy has been fulfilled. It's a gargantuan task, one which I think preterists have achieved admirably. Were even one prophecy to be shown not to have been truly fulfilled beyond any shadow of doubt, then preterism would fall like a house of cards. That preterism still stands all these centuries later is proof positive of its validity. Futurists tend to forget that the odds against being able to fit the thousands of biblical prophecies into history with such accuracy are quintillions to one, much greater than the odds against Jesus fulfilling all 300 or so prophecies of Himself.
I really don`t consider myself a preterist or a futurist. I don`t beleive in a secret rapture or a one man antichrist. If anything, I `m probably partly preterist. I`m still studying it .I just have a hard time believing this world continues on forever and ever like it is. Like iron, I have issue with sin and death never ever being totally destroyed in a literal physicla sense. When I die would it surprise me to learn that full blown preterism is true..no. When I die would it surprise me to learn that partial preterism is true..no.
But when you say it is hard for preterist because they have to prove all prophecy has been fullfilled, I disagree. Preterist just say, it`s all been fullfilled spiritually. So when EVERYTHING is done behind the scenes in a spiritual way,it is just as easy to provide answers. For instance when we talk about all sin and death being defeated and death itself thrown into the lake of fire..preterist just say, it has all been fullfilled. Just in a way that we don`t visually see it.
Again, I`m not strongly against full preterism but there are a couple of things that tend to keep me from totally believing that ALL things have been fullfilled. It`s just that it is easier for preterist than you are admitting it is to explain things. Just say..it`s already happened..just in a spiritual sense.
I really don`t consider myself a preterist or a futurist. I don`t beleive in a secret rapture or a one man antichrist. If anything, I `m probably partly preterist. I`m still studying it .I just have a hard time believing this world continues on forever and ever like it is. Like iron, I have issue with sin and death never ever being totally destroyed in a literal physicla sense. When I die would it surprise me to learn that full blown preterism is true..no. When I die would it surprise me to learn that partial preterism is true..no.
But when you say it is hard for preterist because they have to prove all prophecy has been fullfilled, I disagree. Preterist just say, it`s all been fullfilled spiritually. So when EVERYTHING is done behind the scenes in a spiritual way,it is just as easy to provide answers. For instance when we talk about all sin and death being defeated and death itself thrown into the lake of fire..preterist just say, it has all been fullfilled. Just in a way that we don`t visually see it.
Again, I`m not strongly against full preterism but there are a couple of things that tend to keep me from totally believing that ALL things have been fullfilled. It`s just that it is easier for preterist than you are admitting it is to explain things. Just say..it`s already happened..just in a spiritual sense.
Still another difficulty I have where full preterism is concerned according to scripture is ...
2Pe 1:19-21
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn(day of the lord), and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation(exposition).
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
If full preterism is true then Prophesy is anything but a sure word. As a matter of fact it can only really be understood in hindsight. Jesus said he would come back yet he never really did he just sent Titus to destroy Israel ? If Christ didn't mean he would return literally there is no surety at all in prophecy. For instance when Christ prophesied that the temple would be destroyed, he was certainly making a literal prophecy, but when he prophesied his own return, he was being enigmatic in that he never really returned at all and thus we can never be sure of the word of prophecy because some things prophesied came true literally but others did/do not. ... If full preterism is true, in my mind Prophecy is useless as a light in the darkness of the world we are now in. And to say the world is not submerged in darkness and evil and that the universe is in harmony with the love of God is to live in a fantasy world ... Tell that to all the sex slaves who are kidnapped daily in their adolescent years and sold to rich pedophiles who take advantage of them and torture them, even as we are speaking.
Good heavens Thrill, what have you been smoking? Now you're subscribing to Preterism too? As for the OP, yeah there's no question..........preterism has been debunked over and over.
Here's an oldie but goodie for ya to read: (Actually this is more for that Seattle dude and the likes)
What I and many, many others believe is not futurism.......it's believing what the Bible actually says.
So I read your post from your link, and it seems you are a bit misguided in your interpretation of the scripture. You claim that Preterists spiritualise eschatology, and that Christ kingdom is somehow a kingdom that will exist here on earth in the flesh?
What part of "the kingdom is within you" are you having trouble understanding? That alone cements any arguement concerning the Lord's Parousia, or His coming, to us in the carnal, flesh sense. This is your first mistake, and your second is not correcting the first mistake, which unfortunately will place the scripture, most notably, the eschatological events of the Holy Word, into a plight of confusion, disarray, and sensationalism.
Your claim on the man of sin/lawlessness has not happened, and you appear to liken it to various characteristics that are slewn throughout the Old and New Testament, when you haven't even bothered to do the research and word proof of what this person may actually represent.
You reverted to your own assumption rather than delving into the Holy Word. This is in error, and will undoubtedly take you down a different road than what you are suppose to be taking.
You have also failed to organize any event that is related to the coming/Parousia of our Lord and properly and cohesively ascertain just where it may be transpiring, or even bothered to open up your third grade history book to confirm any of the scriptures you present.
This again is another example of the futurist failure to investigate fulfilled prophecy that all historicists, preterists, and any other view that gives credit to the fevernt work mankind has done by keeping records of themselves. Your argument is a straw man, that can be completely usurped in a few paragraphs, but it would be better if you would take some better time in understand the scripture by utilising hermeneutics 101 and reading it for what it plainly says.
You do not live in the generation that was expecting these events, and you most likely never will. Thinking this to be only gets you lost.
Still another difficulty I have where full preterism is concerned according to scripture is ...
2Pe 1:19-21
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn(day of the lord), and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation(exposition).
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
If preterism is true then Prophesy is anything but a sure word. As a matter of fact it can only really be understood in hindsight. Jesus said he would come back yet he never really did he just sent Titus to destroy Israel ? If Christ didn't mean he would return literally there is no surety at all in prophecy. For instance when Christ prophesied that the temple would be destroyed, he was certainly making a literal prophecy, but when he prophesied his own return, he was being enigmatic in that he never really returned at all and thus we can never be sure of the word of prophecy because some things prophesied came true literally but others did/do not. ... If full preterism is true, in my mind Prophecy is useless as a light in the darkness of the world we are now in. And to say the world is not submerged in darkness and evil and that the universe is in harmony with the love of God is to live in a fantasy world ... Tell that to all the sex slaves who are kidnapped daily in their adolescent years and sold to rich pedophiles who take advantage of them and torture them, even as we are speaking.
That is only if you split up Matt into several parts. I believe Jesus was talking of his return as part of the destruction. Notice he references the temple and his body in that he will destroy it and raise it up. The new temple is not of this world but the body of believers.... anyway my 2 cents.
This is the main point of contention that i have with the full preterist perspective. Above all my other differences of perspective, this is the one that will never be changed in my mind unless God himself works a miracle in order to accomplish it. If preterism is true then i pray God will help me with this apparent dichotomy ... I really have difficulty taking this perspective seriously without feeling insulted. I know that is not your intention, but I have suffered entirely to much in this messed up world to just accept offhandedly that evil and sin and death and suffering have been destroyed already.
and that is what is so easy for me to accept. The kingdom is within us. Therefore if the kingdom is within us and death and sin and evil and suffering are destroyed in the kingdom within us... can you agree that this has been fulfilled, in us?
Quote:
Im not sure what world your living in ... Maybe things are really rosy where you are ... They are not here and never have been. I could go on and on about the various sins that i have myself been in bondage to in the past. I know the sins i still struggle with. You cant tell me sin isn't still very much a reality at this time. My brother is addicted to heroin, even though his close friend just over dosed and died on it just a few moths ago. I was once addicted to drugs and sex and alcohol. I was the victim of child abuse growing up under my mother. I was the victim of sexual molestation by my babysitter when i was 4 years old. I have had more people whom i love die violent deaths then i care to express at this time. For you to tell me that sin and death and evil are destroyed in the universe is almost like a slap in the face ... Again i know that is not your intention and i do not take it personally.
I understand that there is evil and sin in the world. I see, however, that OUR bodies are the temple and the kingdom is within us. This means that Christ made it possible for our temple to contain God... does that make sense? The people you speak of do not live in the light, Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by theSpirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
they choose to live in the darkness. An important reason why the UR gospel is so important in showing them how to LIVE.
Quote:
When i say i believe that sin and death and evil will be destroyed along with all pain and suffering in the universe, i mean it in a very literal way. I cannot announce the full victory of Christ over sin and death if he will allow it to continue endlessly in this world. I understand your perspective is something like an alternate reality which exists parallel to this reality wherein there is no sin or death to which we will all pass when we die. That is in my opinion the very essence of a cop out when it is said that the kosmos(the visible physical universe) will be reconciled to full harmony with God so that death and evil and sin have no more place at all in creation. This is the main reason i will never accept a full preterist view. Though i will continue to research it as it is a relevant perspective, and i want to understand more fully how other people believe so that i might better relate to them in understanding.
God bless ...
I have no alternate reality as you say. However, death, evil, and sin are things that were destroyed in me when I came by the truth. In my temple within me, these things do not exist because I have accepted that I am God's child and should act like it. All my burdens go to him.
Hope that helps in understanding where I am coming from anyway.
Ahh, futurists have it so nice. They don't have to prove a thing. For them it's all somewhere out there in the future---the rapture, the antichrist, the millennial reign. Preterists, on the other hand, have to prove to the satisfaction of historians that all prophecy has been fulfilled. It's a gargantuan task, one which I think preterists have achieved admirably. Were even one prophecy to be shown not to have been truly fulfilled beyond any shadow of doubt, then preterism would fall like a house of cards. That preterism still stands all these centuries later is proof positive of its validity. Futurists tend to forget that the odds against being able to fit the thousands of biblical prophecies into history with such accuracy are quintillions to one, much greater than the odds against Jesus fulfilling all 300 or so prophecies of Himself.
I don`t consider myself a preterist or futurist. I guess perhaps ,I am a partial preterist. There are a couple of things that keep me from believing full preterism. I don`t believe the world will go on and on as we know it. I think there will be a literal and physical end to sin and death. When I die, would it surprise me to earn that full preterism is true...no. When I die, would it surprise me to learn that full preterism is a false teaching...no.
But when you say that it is harder for preterist to explain prophecy moreso than others, I disagree. Pretersit will just say EVERYTHING has been fullfilled in a spiritual sense. That pretty much can expalin away a lot of things. Not everything ,because I believe that preterist make some very valid points and I agree with a lot of it. But to act like preterist have it much tougher as far as proof and trying to explain their beliefs, I disagree. Again, not that I am a futurist or whatever you choose to call it. I don`t believe in a secret rapture or one man called antichrsit,etc. I do believe that the preterist on here much like those that believe in God`s reconciliation( I know you can be both) are very knowledgeable in their beliefs. That is probably what makes them such a threat (like the christian universalist) to the fundamentilist. When you compare what the fundamentilist post on here with the preterist or CU`s it is clear who is the most knowledgable. The fundamentilist church isn`t even close. So they in turn attack because they are left with not much else to debate with. But I am not attacking preterism just making an observastion about your post. Like I said, I wouldn`t be shocked to find full pretersism to be true someday and learn everything the Lord talked about was spiritual.
and that is what is so easy for me to accept. The kingdom is within us. Therefore if the kingdom is within us and death and sin and evil and suffering are destroyed in the kingdom within us... can you agree that this has been fulfilled, in us?
My understanding is that Jesus said the Kingdom was among, not within. He was speaking to the Pharisees in that passage, so if He meant "within you", He was speaking to non-believers which doesn't make sense.
Quote:
I understand that there is evil and sin in the world. I see, however, that OUR bodies are the temple and the kingdom is within us. This means that Christ made it possible for our temple to contain God... does that make sense? The people you speak of do not live in the light, Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by theSpirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
they choose to live in the darkness. An important reason why the UR gospel is so important in showing them how to LIVE.
I have no alternate reality as you say. However, death, evil, and sin are things that were destroyed in me when I came by the truth. In my temple within me, these things do not exist because I have accepted that I am God's child and should act like it. All my burdens go to him.
Hope that helps in understanding where I am coming from anyway.
Sin still exists within my members, in my flesh, my soul, my "earthy man" whatever you want to call it. It must be overcome and destroyed by the Spirit within my spirit, my "heavenly man". And it will be, but it has not been yet. This is a promise that has a future fulfillment. I just don't see how the prophecy that God will "all in all" can be considered fulfilled in the present time when He is not ALL even in us as believers, much less is He yet ALL in ALL people.
Sin and death will always exist in this world...the kingdom that is the New Jerusalem is not from this world or the flesh, it is of the spirit. Those nations and kings that choose to be saved, and walk in its light, will never experience the second/spiritual death in the lake of fire.
Sin and death will always exist in this world...the kingdom that is the New Jerusalem is not from this world or the flesh, it is of the spirit. Those nations and kings that choose to be saved, and walk in its light, will never experience the second/spiritual death in the lake of fire.
Revelation 21-22 - read it again please.
I see Revelation, as 22:16 says, as a word specificially for the churches, not a prophecy of end times. The end that is spoken of in 1 Cor 15:25-28 is what I see as the grand finale, so to speak.
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, but just wanted to say that I'm in 100% agreement with your post. Well said. 
