The Doctrine of "Original Sin" Is Unscriptural (scriptures, sinned, Jesus Christ)

[JamesMRohde]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The word of God is not required to conform to your expectations of what or how it should say something when addressing an issue.

My expectations are simple enough. Scripture should say what we believe. It must actually be written or recognized that it is not written. What is nonexistent in not "the Word of God." That's all. Like C.S.Lewis said, "They pretend to read between the lines while unable to read the lines themselves."

Originally Posted by Mike555

You have been given passages that make the point of original sin and you choose not to believe it. This is the same nonsense as those who deny the Trinity or the rapture because those words aren't found in the Bible.

So glad you could admit it, the "not in the Bible" bit. You'd think you'd get a clue...Now if the Holy Spirit will just make you convicted for the sin of choosing UN-biblical beliefs in the face of the evidence.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Just like 'Trinity' and 'rapture', so too is the term 'original sin' a technicial theological term to describe a doctrine that the Bible teaches. The truth can only be presented to you. What you do with it is up to you. You are certainly not going to convince anyone who has the sense to acknowledge the reality of original sin that it turns out not to be true after all because the way the Bible states it doesn't suit you. 1Cor. 15:22 ''FOR AS IN ADAM ALL DIE.'' Self explanatory.

It's just appalling, you continue the rationalization of "the way the Bible states it..." without any Biblical quote of the Bible stating it! The fragment: "For as in Adam all die" has no mention of sin. My assertion is that it is UN-biblical to believe we are born sinful, that we are sinful with the sins of others, or in any sense, merely by birth as a human, constituted sinners.

IT IS NOT WRITTEN!!! You should seek the Lord to change you so you can lay this to heart for the monumental meaning inherent in it wherever true. We make our confession of faith with the actual words God chose to make His revelation known. That's a simple, straight forward rule delighted in by any professing to follow Jesus.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

No denial from me of judgement or death passing on to others from Adam. It's just that there's nary a quote that says we are sinful because of another's sin. Nada! The logic (trettep) presented was, "We have sin NO MATTER WHAT because we shall DIE. If we have not sin then why would we DIE? Death is a condemnation that is only given for sin and yet all die - because all of us have sin because of Adam's sin that we share in." Well, it's not a Bible verse. How about this: Jesus was sinless yet he died...

I just showed you in my post the verses that DO show we are passed on the sin of Adam. The Judgement of Death has never been given for anything but sin. Your the one claiming otherwise. Why else would God let a baby die? Do you really believe God would let the innocent suffer? Do you not realize that even the baby is born into sin? For those that claim otherwise, it is a very cruel God that you believe in that would give death in exchange for innocence.

Paul

[Mike555]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

My expectations are simple enough. Scripture should say what we believe. It must actually be written or recognized that it is not written. What is nonexistent in not "the Word of God." That's all. Like C.S.Lewis said, "They pretend to read between the lines while unable to read the lines themselves."

Your expectations are meaningless. God's expectations are that we understand what He has revealed in His written word.

So glad you could admit it, the "not in the Bible" bit. You'd think you'd get a clue...Now if the Holy Spirit will just make you convicted for the sin of choosing UN-biblical beliefs in the face of the evidence.

There's nothing to 'admit.' Do you not understand the meaning of revealed concepts, of principles, of doctrines that are developed from passages compared with passages, of scripture compared with scripture? A single word of vocabulary, that is, a technical term, saves a thousand words of explanation. Word's such as 'trinity,' 'rapture,' or 'original sin,' describe those facts that are found in the Bible.

It's just appalling, you continue the rationalization of "the way the Bible states it..." without any Biblical quote of the Bible stating it! The fragment: "For as in Adam all die" has no mention of sin. My assertion is that it is UN-biblical to believe we are born sinful, that we are sinful with the sins of others, or in any sense, merely by birth as a human, constituted sinners.

The word of God is quite rational. The 'quotes' of which you speak have already been given to you in the previous posts but you reject them.The Bible makes original sin, the triune nature of God, the rapture of the Church, perfectly clear. But those who are stiffnecked, hard of heart, dull of understanding, and foolish, and insist on keeping their heads buried in the sand, are unable to see revealed truth.

Your assertion is built on a foundation of quicksand. And therefore, your assertion means absolutely nothing.

IT IS NOT WRITTEN!!! You should seek the Lord to change you so you can lay this to heart for the monumental meaning inherent in it wherever true. We make our confession of faith with the actual words God chose to make His revelation known. That's a simple, straight forward rule delighted in by any professing to follow Jesus.

It is indeed written. You simply will not comprehend what is written. I know full well what I am talking about. It is obvious that you are not willing to listen to anyone and that you are only trying to convince people that you think you know something when in fact you know nothing of that which you profess to know. And so it is a waste of time to continue with this. Therefore, march on.

[juj]

Originally Posted by Oakback

rofl...........

Wasn't that a good one by Fundy. That line has to be recorded in the Smithsonian as line never uttered before or since in the history of man.

[juj]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Your expectations are meaningless. God's expectations are that we understand what He has revealed in His written word.




There's nothing to 'admit.' Do you not understand the meaning of revealed concepts, of principles, of doctrines that are developed from passages compared with passages, of scripture compared with scripture? A single word of vocabulary, that is, a technical term, saves a thousand words of explanation. Word's such as 'trinity,' 'rapture,' or 'original sin,' describe those facts that are found in the Bible.





The word of God is quite rational. The 'quotes' of which you speak have already been given to you in the previous posts but you reject them.The Bible makes original sin, the triune nature of God, the rapture of the Church, perfectly clear. But those who are stiffnecked, hard of heart, dull of understanding, and foolish, and insist on keeping their heads buried in the sand, are unable to see revealed truth.

Your assertion is built on a foundation of quicksand. And therefore, your assertion means absolutely nothing.






It is indeed written. You simply will not comprehend what is written. I know full well what I am talking about. It is obvious that you are not willing to listen to anyone and that you are only trying to convince people that you think you know something when in fact you know nothing of that which you profess to know. And so it is a waste of time to continue with this. Therefore, march on.

Mike, how did you come to your conclusions? I actually agree with you, but HOW did you to come your conclusions and what makes you think you have more authority than Mr. Rohdes? He has the Bible and the Holy Spirit, too, afterall. Who is the judge of an open heart and an open mind? You?

[trettep]

Orignal sin is upon us all! Put your faith in our salvation - Jesus Christ!!!!!!


Paul

[JamesMRohde]

It is quite simple. The doctrine of "Original Sin" teaches we are guilty for someone else's sin. You continue ranting about what the Bible "means" but haven't yet provided one quote of where it actually "says" such a morally repugnant thing. If that is what it means, then it would say so!

[JamesMRohde]

Since you consider it unnecessary for there to be actual Biblical statements to the effect that "God attributes the sins of others to the innocent" and that it is sufficient to be derived logically (extrapolated) from the Bible I provide for your benefit a brief explanation from Dennis (aka "Eleuthera") about the use of logic:
____________________________________________

logic's 'dirty little secret':


I have found that truth is split into two varieties or kinds.

First, there are facts, which are easily understood and verifiable statements of truth.

"The sky is blue."
"I love my wife."
"My van needs an oil change."
"My cats are hungry."
"That word is spelled wrong."
"Tony Stewart is the 2005 Nextel Cup Champion."
"Combining Sodium (Na) a metal, with water (H2O) a covalently bonded compound, will cause a violent reaction, generating heat and motion till either the sodium or the water are completely consumed in the transformation process."

And there are axioms.

I like this definition of an axiom:

An axiom is a formal assumption, also called a postulate, which we propose to assume is always valid.
While we are free to formulate axioms anyway we please, it is clearly desirable that any axioms we adopt lead to useful consequences.

A set of axioms must not lead to contradictory conclusions.

The words property, law and principle are sometimes used to denote an axiom and certain of their consequences.

That came from my old Algebra text book.

However, can you see how that definition applies in all areas of expertise and experience where human beings exist together?

In Law they are called Natural Law.
In relationships they are called Principals.
In other branches of science they are called Properties.

They are self-evident truths that usually can't be proved, except by experience, and are generally accepted as true because they simply make sense to all humans everywhere.

Here are a few well known axioms:

a=a
Don't murder.
a+b+c = (a+b)+c
Don't take what doesn't belong to you
a(b+c)= ab+ac
Don't lie
The shortest distant between two points is a straight line
Don't have sex with anyone you're not married to.
If a=b and b=c then a=c.
Don't desire what you can't have.

Also, many proverbs and sayings are axiomatic because they reflect the truth of our experiences in a succinct, often whimsical, but sometimes ruthless, way.

Now, the truth is that truth works hand in hand with logic to provide conclusions with useful consequences.

But, the 'dirty little secret' is that logic works independently of the truth in the statements.

That is, you will always arrive at a logical conclusion!

So, it follows, logically, that if the statements are true then the conclusion will also be true. But, if any of the statements are false, either axiomatically or factually, then the conclusion will also be false.

But the kicker is there will always be a conclusion!

And that is why we argue, fuss and fight over our theologies! Because the logic of each and every theology (including mine) always has assumptions. And those assumptions are as different as there are humans who want to believe what they want to believe.

And that is because, all to often, we search until we find the axioms that we can use to give us the conclusions we want. And axioms can always be 'found' because we can make them up as we wish, 'proving' them later.

That is why it has been said of logic, facetiously, that it is a way of arriving at an incorrect conclusion with certainty!

And why I say, "Don't believe everything you think."

[trettep]

Originally Posted by JamesMRohde

It is quite simple. The doctrine of "Original Sin" teaches we are guilty for someone else's sin. You continue ranting about what the Bible "means" but haven't yet provided one quote of where it actually "says" such a morally repugnant thing. If that is what it means, then it would say so!

Simply read Romans. It shows that all those that didn't sin according to the same sin that Adam had were sinners even before the coming of the Law of Moses. This is speaking towards the condemnation we received in Adam. It it all there. Also, consider the fact that you DO indeed die! What does that tell you? You see if we can die it means we are under the curse of sin.

Paul

[JamesMRohde]

Originally Posted by trettep

Simply read Romans. It shows that all those that didn't sin according to the same sin that Adam had were sinners even before the coming of the Law of Moses. This is speaking towards the condemnation we received in Adam. It it all there. Also, consider the fact that you DO indeed die! What does that tell you? You see if we can die it means we are under the curse of sin.

Paul

I notice your conspicuous lack of quotations directly stating anything to the effect that God attributes the sins of others to innocent people.

It's not just that IT IS NOT WRITTEN!!! but the horrible public display of your nature, that religion could so damage your moral sense and cut you off from the true God that you see no problem with the idea that God makes innocent people guilty for the sins of others which I find incredible. There's nothing like religion to make men to be crazed with evil then to convince them it is really good. Bad politics is a thing truly wicked; but, there is one thing worse, that is bad religion: the realm of ultimate evil.

(And don't forget to deeply consider post #28 above..."Logic is a way of arriving at an incorrect conclusion with certainty!")