U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-28-2009, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,703 posts, read 1,799,783 times
Reputation: 903

Advertisements

The first appearance of the valley of Hinnom in its Grecized form geenna (or gaienna) is in the Septuagint in Joshua 18:16

και καταβησεται τα ορια επι μερους του ορους ο εστιν κατα προσωπον ναπης ονναμ ο εστιν εκ μερους εμεκραφαιν απο βορρα και καταβησεται γαιεννα επι νωτου ιεβουσαι απο λιβος και καταβησεται επι πηγην ρωγηλ

descenditque in partem montis qui respicit vallem filiorum Ennom et est contra septentrionalem plagam in extrema parte vallis Rafaim descenditque Gehennom id est vallis Ennom iuxta latus Iebusei ad austrum et pervenit ad fontem Rogel (Vulgate)

and the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel (KJV)

Traditionalists who want to defend the translation of geenna with "hell" refer to the book of Enoch, the 4th book of Esra and 2nd Baruch, or maybe the Apocalypse of Baruch.

The book of Enoch, mentions a burning valley, however it doesn't employ the term geenna.

the 4th book of Esra and 2nd Baruch, are much later than the NT writings as far as I know.

nowhere in the Septuagint or the apocryphal writings prior to the NT such as Tobit, Wisdom etc. is the term geenna used as a place of future punishment. Neither Philo of Alexandria nor Josephus seem to be familiar with that term, they seem both to denote hades the place of future punishment. So actually no source prior or temporary to Christ, such as the Septuagint or Josephus support the traditional interpretation of Gehenna.

The Jews contemporary to Origen seemed to have understood Gehenna as purgatory according to Origens words, however, Origen also lived to late.

my questions in particular are, are there any references to Gehenna in writings that are undoubtlessly prior or contemporary with Christ?

does it appear in the Qumran writings?

When was the Talmud written?, are there any references to Gehenna in the earlierst parts of the Talmud (if it was not written much later than the NT)?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:07 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,719,489 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
Traditionalists who want to defend the translation of geenna with "hell" refer to the book of Enoch, the 4th book of Esra and 2nd Baruch, or maybe the Apocalypse of Baruch.

The book of Enoch, mentions a burning valley, however it doesn't employ the term geenna.

the 4th book of Esra and 2nd Baruch, are much later than the NT writings as far as I know
Book of Enoch, esra???? I don't know what traditionalist you have been talking to maybe tradionalist Mormons but the traditionalists I know do not use "lost books of the bible" to study nor interpret scripture, "sola scriptura" just the bible

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is also used in the New Testament for hell and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place where the souls of unbelievers are kept
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,703 posts, read 1,799,783 times
Reputation: 903
I recently read an evangelical commentary (German) on the gospel of Mark and the translation of Gehenna with "hell" was argumented with its use in 4th Esra and 2nd Baruch, others do so also - there is no bible-intern proof to translate Gehenna with hell, as it is a literal place near Jerusalem. Sheol is no place of punishment in the biblical books.

However I'm interested if it occurs in any writing prior to Christ at all (I suppose the Talmud is of later date); and if it occurs in the Dead sea scrolls.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:25 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,466,375 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Book of Enoch, esra???? I don't know what traditionalist you have been talking to maybe tradionalist Mormons but the traditionalists I know do not use "lost books of the bible" to study nor interpret scripture, "sola scriptura" just the bible

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is also used in the New Testament for hell and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place where the souls of unbelievers are kept
The writings of Enoch were never "lost", ever, but Rome banned them nearly four hundred years[!] after the NT Church was established; and protestants continued under Rome, as sattellites of Rome, even leaving in their Bibles the Apocrypha [even exactly as it was, changed over time by Rome, itself] until the late 1800's, when the Archbishop of Canterbury banned the Apocrypha and made anathema anyonw who would include the reading of it in Churches, even though the Archbishop of Canterbury of the time of the KJV 1611 translation had made anathema anyone who would not include the Apocrypha in the Church readings. -It's all politics, this so called "canon/ list" made up by men in the 4th century.

Enoch has always been "canon" in the Ethiopian Christian Churches since the beginning of their conversion from Judaism to New Testament Christianity. They never followed Rome, and so Enoch was never "lost" but to the political churches of Rome and their protestant satellites.

Sheol is hell, one and the same word, different languages.
Sheol is described by Enoch completely as below earth and divided into four compartments. Jesus referenced two of those four compartments as Enoch described them, exactly, in Luke 16. -And Jesus called Enoc h's writings Scripture, in Matthew Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures [Enoch's writings], nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. [Enoch's writings reveal these truths]..
I follow Jesus on what is Scripture. You follow Rome, apparently.
The foundational doctrines for the Lake of Fire and for Sheol below earth are laid out completely in 1 Enoch, as the foundational doctrine for the Son of Man in heaven, hidden, with God, who was God, and who was to come and in whose name the redeemed would be saved, is also written. All the major doctrines are foundationaly laid in 1 Enoch, and are not relaid in the OT or NT because Enooch was and is Scripture. Moses and the prophets did not need to rewrite what YHWH had already spoken in revelation through Enoch.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,703 posts, read 1,799,783 times
Reputation: 903
I have examined the available Greek text of the book of Enoch, you can see my conclusion there:

evangelicaluniversalist.com • View topic - the use of AiĆ“n in the apocryphal Book of Enoch

however Gehenna does not appear in the book of Enoch, so that doesn't answer my question, so please let's leave with the book of Enoch.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2009, 11:53 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,466,375 times
Reputation: 212
Hell/Sheol, means hollow, the pit.

Enoch saw the four compartments of earth, the hollow places of the earth -Sheol/Hell- set apart for the souls of men [and angels who were bound there til the judgment day].

Quote:
1 Enoch
[Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.



3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'



I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'



8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.



And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits.



There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners.

Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
Now Jesus gave a lesson about two men in Sheol, one righteous and one an unrepentant sinner, in Luke 16. Jesus said one was in comfort, in Abraham's bosom [he was a child of faith, and went to the "hollow" for the righteous, to wait for the day of Atonement, the day of release from there for all the righteous], and one was in torment.

Just as Enoch portrayed Sheol, even so, Jesus gives a report on conditions there for two departed souls.

Quote:
9"There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried; 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24And he called out, `Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, `Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 2


7And he said, `Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, `No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2009, 12:13 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,719,489 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
The writings of Enoch were never "lost", ever, but Rome banned them...........
Notice I put them in "Lost books of the bible" quotation marks

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 09-28-2009 at 12:23 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-28-2009, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Germany
1,703 posts, read 1,799,783 times
Reputation: 903
I'm familiar with this, but please respect that I am not interested to debate about the book of Enoch here, there does already exist a thread:

The book of Enoch...why isn't it in the bible?

please don't hijack my thread, the book of Enoch does not mention Gehenna, so it doesn't contribute anything to my particular question.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2009, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,673,360 times
Reputation: 1699
I personally thing that the translators thought ge-henna was close enough to hell since it was reputed to have been a fire pit for sacrificing humans to idols and later a garbage pit with dead criminals that was burned...

Also sulfur was burned around it as a cleansing act. Anyway its much scarier to portray "Dante's Inferno" than a valley south west of Jerusalem that is now beautiful.

Close enough, right?

In the book:
An inquiry into the Scriptural import of the words sheol, hades, tartarus ... Pg 238
By Walter Balfour

He says that a Dr. Campbell leaves hades untranslated and yet translates gehenna as hell because "I will subjoin a few words on the manner
wherein the distinction has been preserved between Hades and Gehenna by the translators of the New Testament; So as I observed before,
Gehenna, as the name for the place of punishment, does not occur in the Old. All the Latin translations I have seen, observe the distinction.
All without exception adopt the word Gehenna, though they do not all uniformly translate Hades. "

You can read more here: http://books.google.com/books?id=q7H...20hell&f=false

Last edited by katjonjj; 09-30-2009 at 01:05 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-05-2009, 08:42 PM
 
1 posts, read 2,937 times
Reputation: 10
Geenna (gheh'-en-nah) comes from "valley of Hinnom," referring to a valley in Jerusalem. I think that's already been established in this thread. The valley of Hinnom was a place of pagan worship; the followers of Baal would offer up their newborns as sacrifices to their god and burn the children alive.

In Jeremiah 19:6-7 God says that the valley will be called "the valley of slaughter" henceforth, and goes on to declare in the next verses... "And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them. Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee, And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, saith the LORD, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet:"

Culturally, it would have been understood in the NT that Jesus was referring to a place where great punishment took place. The Hebrews knew their OT, especially the books that referred to their coming Messiah as Jeremiah does over and over again. The thing that would pop into their heads at the mention of the valley would not be "oh, yes, that place where the dead go temporarily" but rather they would remember the judgement God pronounced there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top