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I understand that but "all are going to be saved" is not an option but none is... I don't think "none" are saved.
None -
Some- Right in the middle ground where it is all nice and cozy. If you don't have to do all sorts of things then you are saved. If you do have to do all sorts of things then you are saved.
I understand that but "all are going to be saved" is not an option but none is... I don't think "none" are saved.
None -
Some- Right in the middle ground where it is all nice and cozy. If you don't have to do all sorts of things then you are saved. If you do have to do all sorts of things then you are saved.
All-
Interesting.
Well, I don't believe this because scripture does not back this us. It is clear that there will be people in the Lake of Fire, but there is no scripture that says God will bring them out of this fire.
Sorry, I can't believe that God would only punish one false prophet when you have proof in scripture that says that their will be many false prophets.
But anyway, I am very tired, I have to get up in the morning. I get up really early and go to the gym. Later.
Well, I don't believe this because scripture does not back this us. It is clear that there will be people in the Lake of Fire, but there is no scripture that says God will bring them out of this fire.
Sorry, I can't believe that God would only punish one false prophet when you have proof in scripture that says that their will be many false prophets.
But anyway, I am very tired, I have to get up in the morning. I get up really early and go to the gym. Later.
Where are the rest of the false prophets going, will they be in heaven? I already provided the scriptures that shows.
Also how is it, that in Matthew 24:24 you have prophets who are doing the same thing that this one prophet has done. God want punish one and leave the rest who have done the same. That is why I am saying that there will be more than one in the lake of fire.
If I am a false prophet, not prophets, I will be thrown into the lake of fire. Anyone who is a false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire.
It's almost 1:00, and I am going to bed. It was fun talking with you but I have to get up early.
Well even tho you are going to bed, I will respond so you can have something to read in the morning (Its only 10:45 pm here) .
The bible does not say all false prophets are the 1 false prophet in Rev. It wasn't even written yet.
Acts 13 has a story of the false prophet Bar-Jesus. Bar-Jesus is blinded not killed not doomed to hell. Simply blinded. Do you think he too is in hell if all they did was blind him so that others could see? It doesn't even say if he was blinded forever (for the rest of his life) or what. So you can't really state that the 1 false prophet in Rev is all of them combined. What you could say is the idea or power of the false prophets are all combined.... Revelation 16:13
Then I saw three evilspirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
The dragon has seven heads, ten horns, and seven diadems.
The beast has ten heads, seven horns, and ten diadems.
The false prophet has two horns like a lamb and spoke like the dragon.
Daniel 8:20 "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
I would say that the false prophet is a governing system, but that's just me.
The thing is that three evil spirits come out them like frogs.
This is cross referenced to Exodus 8 where a plague of frogs is seen: 2 “But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite your whole territory with frogs.
Now this is a stretch but I'm just musing here:
So the evil spirits are like a plague (frogs).
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
So it is the spirits that come out of the devil, beast, and prophet and go deceive the world. Shows that the 1 false prophet is a system of wickedness not just people.
So there are the devil, the beast, the false prophet, all representing systems of wickedness (not alive), and also death and hades (not alive)there are no real people thrown into the lake of fire except those not found in the book of life.
And we both agree that we do not know what is or who is written in the book of life. It seems strange that there is no more information if that held the key to whether hell is eternal, everlasting or just a purification process before the presence of God.
It seems to me if I can't find a single real human person that goes into the lake of fire (except if you count death since we all die) then all must go through the lake of fire as judgment then to the presence of God.
Not the only option but it is more valid than saying there is any living person (minus the book of life which is still undecided) in the lake of fire according to the bible.
Well even tho you are going to bed, I will respond so you can have something to read in the morning (Its only 10:45 pm here) .
The bible does not say all false prophets are the 1 false prophet in Rev. It wasn't even written yet.
Acts 13 has a story of the false prophet Bar-Jesus. Bar-Jesus is blinded not killed not doomed to hell. Simply blinded. Do you think he too is in hell if all they did was blind him so that others could see? It doesn't even say if he was blinded forever (for the rest of his life) or what. So you can't really state that the 1 false prophet in Rev is all of them combined. What you could say is the idea or power of the false prophets are all combined....
Revelation 16:13
Then I saw three evilspirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
The dragon has seven heads, ten horns, and seven diadems.
The beast has ten heads, seven horns, and ten diadems.
The false prophet has two horns like a lamb and spoke like the dragon.
Daniel 8:20 "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
I would say that the false prophet is a governing system, but that's just me.
The thing is that three evil spirits come out them like frogs.
This is cross referenced to Exodus 8 where a plague of frogs is seen: 2 “But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite your whole territory with frogs.
Now this is a stretch but I'm just musing here:
So the evil spirits are like a plague (frogs).
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
So it is the spirits that come out of the devil, beast, and prophet and go deceive the world. Shows that the 1 false prophet is a system of wickedness not just people.
So there are the devil, the beast, the false prophet, all representing systems of wickedness (not alive), and also death and hades (not alive)there are no real people thrown into the lake of fire except those not found in the book of life.
And we both agree that we do not know what is or who is written in the book of life. It seems strange that there is no more information if that held the key to whether hell is eternal, everlasting or just a purification process before the presence of God.
It seems to me if I can't find a single real human person that goes into the lake of fire (except if you count death since we all die) then all must go through the lake of fire as judgment then to the presence of God.
Not the only option but it is more valid than saying there is any living person (minus the book of life which is still undecided) in the lake of fire according to the bible.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore Sheol has enlarged itself
And opened its mouth beyond measure;
Their glory and their multitude and their pomp,
And he who is jubilant, shall descend into it.
Hades is not being enlarged for one prophet and one devil. Lets get real, if you enlarge something, that means you are making room for something.
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It seems to me if I can't find a single real human person that goes into the lake of fire (except if you count death since we all die) then all must go through the lake of fire as judgment then to the presence of God.
The problem is there is no scripture that says that God will send someone to the lake of fire as judgement and then brought into His presence.
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there are no real people thrown into the lake of fire except those not found in the book of life.
This is what you say, but this is what the bible says.
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Whoever is not in this book, they will be in the Lake of Fire. You say that you can't find a single scripture that says anyone will be in the lake of fire, well, you just didn't look for it. It says whosoever, not all, or few, whosoever. So, this scripture says that a person's whose name is not written will be in the lake of fire. This is the bible. It doesn't matter that we don't know whose name will be in there, we are not suppose to know, but we have the scripture that says, if your name is not in it, the Lake of Fire will await you. If you deny that, you deny scripture.
You say you can't find a verse that says that anyone will be in the fire, well, Jesus is saying:
Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
You say that you can't find a single verse, I have already provided two, here is another one:
Luke 16:19-31
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fellfrom the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Now as you see the rich man was in hades and was in torment. He begged that He could go to His family, and he was told no. And it also says that those who want to pass to the other side can not on either side. Meaning that the rich man could not pass, be brought out off his place of torment.
There was a great gulf between them, which permitted anyone one of them to pass on either side. Then it is said that if they didn't listen to Moses and the prophets, they wouldn't listen to one that has risen from the dead. The man wanted to come back and warn so his family would end up there.
"hell" is an English word. When Mark recorded Christ's words, he wrote them in the Greek language. The Greek word translated "hell," which Mark was inspired to write down, is gehenna. Since in this verse Christ says the sinner is "to go into hell, into the fire," it follows that those who go to gehenna will receive punishment by fire.
But what about gehenna? This Greek word, as all authorities admit, is derived from the name of the narrow, rocky Valley of Hinnom which lay just outside Jerusalem. It was the place where refuse was constantly burned up. Trash, filth, and the dead bodies of animals and despised criminals were thrown into the fires of gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom. Ordinarily, everything thrown into this valley was destroyed by fire—completely burned up. Therefore, Christ used gehenna to picture the terrible fate of unrepentant sinners! The MP3 talks more about this.
If what you said is true by those being able to come out of the flames, the rich man would have been permitted to come out of it, but he was told no, and was only tormented.
The first two versed does not say that all will be saved.
I take if you don't do much studying, even scholars talk about this verse.
Please, Miss Shawn, I have read & heard these arguments before.
Most "scholars" simply do not want to believe the plain meaning of 1 Tim 2:4, because then they would have to give up their ideas on eternal torment and free will.
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The bible reveals tow aspects of God's will for humankind with regard to salvation: his perfect will, which says that he wants, everyone to be saved (cf 4:10); tit 2:11), and his permissive will, which is acknowledges that he permits many to refuse to com to Christ to receive salvation ( Mat 7:21; Luk 7:30;13:34; Jn7:17; Ac7:51. You should read up on the will of God.
Will" [thelo]. God wants (desires) all men without exception to be saved. However in the case of some His will is resisted through obstinate unbelief because man has a free will and God will not force His will upon man. If he did, man would not be free; he would be a robot. Therefore, God only elects those who He foresees will choose Him in time; that is, when they hear and respond to the gospel. Man can respond to the gospel because he has a free will — free to choose good or evil because Christ merited this grace or ability for him and all mankind without exception when He died upon the cross. Consequently, no one can blame God for dying in unbelief and being condemned to hell. The responsibility lies solely with man: he could have chosen to be saved if he had so desired to choose Christ.
The first 2 verses say God will do what He wants. And what He wants is to save all men.
Your "brilliant" theologian is reduced to saying either:
1. Christ's sacrifice didn't actually save anybody
OR
2. Christ didn't die for the sins of the whole world.
Both concepts are completely unscriptural and diminish what Christ did on the cross.
I think the real problem is you believe man's free will is more powerful than God's will. God is trying to do everything to save men, but man has the ultimate veto -> therefore God can't save anyone without man's permission. This is completely unscriptural.
The other problem is you assume these verses and others (Mat 7:21, Luke 7:30, Luke 13:34, John 7:17, Acts 7:51) are saying people won't be saved. Again you are reading something in scripture that is just not there. No one is denying people reject Christ. But they won't always.
Man can respond to the gospel because he has a free will — free to choose good or evil because Christ merited this grace or ability for him and all mankind without exception when He died upon the cross. Consequently, no one can blame God for dying in unbelief and being condemned to hell. The responsibility lies solely with man: he could have chosen to be saved if he had so desired to choose Christ.
This doctrine of man's free will choice to save himself is the ultimate in arrogance and pride.
This is the doctrine that allows men to say "I, me, myself, was smart enough to choose God and be saved, while that other guy was not smart enough to choose God, therefore he deserves to be condemned forever". It puts all the credit on the individual being saved because they were lucky/smart enough to live in the right part of the world where the gospel was being preached.
Never mind about all those people who never heard the name of Jesus, they deserve to burn because they weren't smart or lucky enough to hear the gospel.
You are correct. There is no use beyond a certain point in presenting the truth to those who willingly refuse to see.
The sword you are wielding there has two edges sir!
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