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Old 09-30-2009, 04:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
You are a very funny man. You are so positive God isn't going to do away with His enemies so how do you explain this verse?

Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Or these:
Job 18:5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.

Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.

Ps 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

Ps 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

What did you do...tear out 1/2 of your Bible?

I could go on, but I think I've made my point, and am fini with this discussion with you.
Okay, finally we are getting somewhere ...

My answer to you argument for everlasting death is this ...

2Cr 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

I hear you say, yes only for those that believe before they die ... Of course there is no place in scripture that says you cannot be saved after you die. As a matter of fact the bible says clear as a bell that those who have no good works will suffer loss, but will be saved as though by fire.

1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Now i hear you say this verse is only referring to those who believe but have no good works, which itself is a fallacious argument, but even if it where only referring the wicked servants(believers with no good works), we have Jesus parable of the wicked servant to tell us what the portion(fate) of the wicked servant is ...

Luk 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So, if the wicked servant(believer who has no good works) is appointed his portion(fate, judgment) with the unbelievers, then the unbelievers will suffer the same fate as the wicked servant. And 1Cr 3:15 clearly states they will be saved, yet so as by fire.

That is why all the language associated with the lake of fire is symbolic of purification or refinement. The word torment in the book of revelations is a translation of the word basanizo, a touchstone which is used in the process of refining metals to test the purity of the metals. That is why the lake of fire is said to be filled with brimstone. Brimstone is another word for sulfur ... Sulfur is an incense used for its purifying agents to ward off pestilence ... It was also used in religious ceremonies of the ancient Hebrews for consecrating holy relics. All the language and symbolism which is associated with the lake of fire refers us to ...

Mal 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Look at what Christ said here ...

Mar 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

This again refers us to 1Cr 3:15, and clearly shows that it is not only referring to the believers.

Again we find ...

Rev 20:13
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Now we see the lake of fire is the test of men's works spoken of in 1 cor 3:12-15 ...


The thing is most Christians don't understand is that even Christians will undergo the test of fire, but will not suffer loss or be hurt of it ...


Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt(suffer loss) of the second death.


The thing most Christian's don't understand is that we are in the process of the death of the old man in our bodies now, and being drawn by the father to Christ we are undergoing the salting of fire in this life in this age. So that we will not be hurt of the lake of fire judgment in the fullness of times. But those who do not believe, are not being salted at this time, and will suffer loss and be hurt of the lake of fire. But they will be saved, yet so as by fire.


Now we read ...


1Cr 15:55
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


1Cr 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


So, if death is the last enemy destroyed, it is the last thing cast into the lake of fire ... And if death is being destroyed, then where is its victory? If you say that the majority of gods creation will be dead for ever, then death has a victory over most of Gods creation. If you say that death is everlasting for most people(those who are not Christians), then death shall certainly sting the Christians who had loved ones who did not believe and will be dead for ever and can never be seen again. But the wicked dead are resurrected after death is destroyed, and the grave is cast into the lake of fire along with death, so that no one is left in the grave at all... that is to say no one is left dead. And after all are purified in the lake of fire, they will finally and ever more bow before Christ and confess he is lord to the glory of the father ...


Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.


Psa 68:32
Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:


Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear(Heb - shaba` to swear allegiance, an oath of fealty).


Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.




Yes, God destroys his enemies, but he loves his enemies, just as Christ does, and he proved it when he asked god to forgive the children of the devil(pharisees/sadducees) who murdered him ... The wicked and the unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom. They will not take part in the first resurrection. They are corrected for the ages(aionios kolasis - age abiding correction), and will not be reconciled until the fullness of times ... And so it is written ...


1Ti 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Selah ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-30-2009 at 04:41 PM..
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Old 09-30-2009, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,840,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Verna,

I am not intending to be deceitful in anyway. Your previous post seemed to imply that (maybe that was not your intent). I am presenting the truth as best I currently understand it.

I am 37 years old today. It is my birthday. I believe I was saved when I was 5 years old. Yes, I said a sinners prayer when I was 5, because I had just learnt about hell and knew I didn't want to go there. I had good parents and good family life. For the next 30 years I was a regular church going person more or less (less in university, then more after I got married). I was a pretty good kid as they come, kindof nerdy, didn't get into trouble, played piano in church, got good grades, didn't drink or party. I believed all the things you do, that Christ was only going to save a few that believed in him, and the rest would burn in hell forever. I believed this for 30 years. Then 2 years ago I really started studying this, trying to understand what hell was, who was going there, wondering if I could go there if I screwed up, even though I had believed for 30 years. I was worried about my brother who didn't really seem interested in church, I was worried for my new born daughter, I was worried about the mark of the beast, and all the end-times hoopla and scaryness. I wanted to make sense of it all.

At this time I was looking at alot of the "conspiracy" type stuff, and how it could tie into different end times scenarios. ie. I'm talking about "NWO controls everything, vaccines are evil, fluoride in the water, 911 was an inside job, some monument in Georgia says the elite want to reduce population by 90%, lets microchip everyone" kind of stuff. Finally I prayed one of the most heart-felt prayers I had ever done in my life. I asked God to show me. SHOW ME! Show me how I would be saved from this whole mess of life as I was coming to understand it. Show me how I would survive the mark of the beast, because I didn't know if I could do it on my own.

For some reason I then came across this verse:

Luke 21:8 But not a hair of your head will perish.

It gave me some comfort. Then a few weeks later I discovered something that I can only believe at this point was the answer to my prayer. I discovered that there were some bibles that did not translate certain or even any verses using the word eternal. I researched this, it became clear to me that it was a very good argument that this little word "aion" and "aionios" should not be translated as eternal at all. It took me a year of intensive study, to figure this out and confirm it for myself. I'm talking intensive study, on average roughly 6 hours a day for one year, reading various bible versions, reading different articles, comparing the scripture they use with what is in the bible, seeing what the true meaning is.

Sorry for going way off-topic here, but I'm telling you, I believe it is the truth: eternal/forever/etc is mistranslated in many bibles that you and I have been familiar with our whole life. This then leads to the conclusion that God will save all men, just like the bible says.

This is not something I just picked up and am now trying to use to deceive others. No. The problem is the whole world is deceived, just as scripture really says. When you are deceived, you don't know it. I didn't know it for 30 years. There are a few coming out of this deception in each generation. I am only trying to present this as best as I know how. When you know the truth, you cannot hide it.

I will get to your verses Verna in my next post.

Peace out Verna and everyone else I have been sparring with.
Legoman,
Happy Birthday!! Mine was the 18th.
I too started to study as you did. I took two years for first, the second coming which, as a 5 year old, I did not want to go through; and second, hell because it just didn't make sense to me. However, I lived a life of hardship because of what I chose to do in rebellion to the message of God. So I wanted to know exactly what it was I feared, I remember crying out to God to show me that he wasn't full of hate and damnation. I studied every evening until the wee hours of the morning for two years.

I did not come up with the same things you did in my journey but to the same end.

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the short path or the narrow gate to heaven. At the end of those two years, I embraced God (not the one christians tell about but the one I knew). I also left my old life completely becoming a single mother of 4 without a place to live while singing in my car about God's grace...

It is so clear everywhere in the bible that God is love. If you take those three words and use them to interpret every word of scripture... the gospel will set you free.

So back on topic:
I know that you, legoman, have studied this word problem in depth and I agree. Do you think that making the word eternal mean "an infinite amount of time without beginning or end" changes the gospel in any way?

For other posters: What part of your faith hinges on the words eternal, everlasting...etc.?
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Old 09-30-2009, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,840,619 times
Reputation: 496
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Okay, finally we are getting somewhere ...

My answer to you argument for everlasting death is this ...

2Cr 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

I hear you say, yes only for those that believe before they die ... Of course there is no place in scripture that says you cannot be saved after you die. As a matter of fact the bible says clear as a bell that those who have no good works will suffer loss, but will be saved as though by fire.

1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Now i hear you say this verse is only referring to those who believe but have no good works, which itself is a fallacious argument, but even if it where only referring the wicked servants(believers with no good works), we have Jesus parable of the wicked servant to tell us what the portion(fate) of the wicked servant is ...

Luk 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So, if the wicked servant(believer who has no good works) is appointed his portion(fate, judgment) with the unbelievers, then the unbelievers will suffer the same fate as the wicked servant. And 1Cr 3:15 clearly states they will be saved, yet so as by fire.
Very good point.

Quote:
That is why all the language associated with the lake of fire is symbolic of purification or refinement. The word torment in the book of revelations is a translation of the word basanizo, a touchstone which is used in the process of refining metals to test the purity of the metals. That is why the lake of fire is said to be filled with brimstone. Brimstone is another word for sulfur ... Sulfur is an incense used for its purifying agents to ward off pestilence ... It was also used in religious ceremonies of the ancient Hebrews for consecrating holy relics.
Yes and coincidentally, sulfur as incense was used around the valley of Hinnom to purify the air of disease.

Very good post.
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Old 09-30-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,840,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
If you think that the devil is representing a system, then you are blinded, as your arguement shows.
Ephesians 6:12 (King James Version)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The enemy, the adversary, the beast, the devil, the false prophet, mystery babylon, the bad woman , Gog and Magog, these are all spiritual representations that all humans wrestle against. It is the rulers of the darkness of the world, not the human rulers of the world.

You are mistaken.

Quote:
It doesn't matter that we dont know whose names is in this book, what matters is God says if your name is not in it. But it doesn't matter, because you keep hiding under the cover of this verse, because God want tell you whose name will be in there.

Actually I didn't even waste my time on telling about the words sheols and the such. I actually got them from scholors. Because I knew you would lie and say that I was in error. So, you are basically saying that the scholars are in error, and you know so much more. Yea, right.
I'm not telling you I know more. I quoted a man who translated it. He said that since no one would know the "significance of the valley of Hinnom" in his day, that he would translate it as hell. Hades was apparently clear to some so he left Hades as is. That is how HE did it. We see today how it is that the valley of Hinnom transliterated as Ge-henna that reads Hell. There is nothing in the translation that indicates anything other than a specific place on earth. That's like taking the city of Rome and replacing it with Hell during the translation. How is that even close to right?

Eternal hell:
Do a bible keyword search for eternal hell. There is no such thing. Try everlasting hell.. Now if you find something let me know as I only used the one version. Search for anything related to hell and eternity together. Try sheol or hades with eternity. The two words don't seem to match up together. So you are saying the lake of fire is eternal on what grounds?
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Old 09-30-2009, 05:08 PM
 
9,503 posts, read 5,180,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Ephesians 6:12 (King James Version)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The enemy, the adversary, the beast, the devil, the false prophet, mystery babylon, the bad woman , Gog and Magog, these are all spiritual representations that all humans wrestle against. It is the rulers of the darkness of the world, not the human rulers of the world.

You are mistaken.

I'm not telling you I know more. I quoted a man who translated it. He said that since no one would know the "significance of the valley of Hinnom" in his day, that he would translate it as hell. Hades was apparently clear to some so he left Hades as is. That is how HE did it. We see today how it is that the valley of Hinnom transliterated as Ge-henna that reads Hell. There is nothing in the translation that indicates anything other than a specific place on earth. That's like taking the city of Rome and replacing it with Hell during the translation. How is that even close to right?

Eternal hell:
Do a bible keyword search for eternal hell. There is no such thing. Try everlasting hell.. Now if you find something let me know as I only used the one version. Search for anything related to hell and eternity together. Try sheol or hades with eternity. The two words don't seem to match up together. So you are saying the lake of fire is eternal on what grounds?
On what you reject .....Jesus' word.

"Never means never"
"All means all"

John 5:29
"—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
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Old 09-30-2009, 05:12 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,474,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
On what you reject .....Jesus' word.

"Never means never"
"All means all"

John 5:29
"—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."

Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
I said it before, and now ill say it again ...

You just hate the fact that God is reconciling all men and even Satan and his angels, because you don't truly love your enemies ... You just pretend like you do. If you really loved you enemies, you would rejoice in the word of universal reconciliation just as much as those of us who do love our enemies. Open your heart and let the truth of Gods grace and the complete love of Christ enter. Then you will be able to hear what the spirit is saying to the church.
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Old 09-30-2009, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,840,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
On what you reject .....Jesus' word.

"Never means never"
"All means all"

John 5:29
"—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."
Have you ever done evil? You will rise to be condemned. Have you ever done good? You will rise to live. Seems to me that you can have both!

Quote:
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
It doesn't even say anything about eternity. Just wrath and anger. That's just common sense... if you do evil someone somewhere will be angry and wrathful.

Quote:
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
Yep.. His face is turned against them.. is he turning his cheek?
They can't see his face in either case but nothing about hell or eternity.

Quote:
Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Well there ya go... be sure not to call the Holy Spirit working through someone an evil spirit... you are not eternally guilty but you've committed an eternal sin.....
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Old 09-30-2009, 06:37 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 941,797 times
Reputation: 256
Again my replies in blue:

well, I said I was finished (fini)discussing this with you, but since you have put words in my mouth and are taking Scripture out of context I will continue for now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Okay, finally we are getting somewhere ...

My answer to you argument for everlasting death is this ...

2Cr 1:9
But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:

First, and I know you will argue with this, but you are confused as to who the 'we' are in the above passage. Here is who Paul is speaking to:

1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

So Paul is adressing the 'church' and or the 'saints.'

I hear you say, yes only for those that believe before they die ... Of course there is no place in scripture that says you cannot be saved after you die. As a matter of fact the bible says clear as a bell that those who have no good works will suffer loss, but will be saved as though by fire.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said, "those that believe before they die." Actually, if the truth be known, I don't'agree with that statement. I believe God is fair and the only ones He holds accountable for knowing the 'truth' are those who have heard the truth with understanding. Another subject for another time.

1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here you have taken this verse out of context. Let's look at it in the context it was written in:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Who laid the foundation? Christ.

11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Which foundation? Christ.

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: *for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

*what day? The day of Christ's return.

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Why by fire? Because Christ has returned and it is His fire that will test the believer's works.

Now i hear you say this verse is only referring to those who believe but have no good works, which itself is a fallacious argument, but even if it where only referring the wicked servants(believers with no good works), we have Jesus parable of the wicked servant to tell us what the portion(fate) of the wicked servant is ...

Luk 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Okay, again taken out of context. Let's look at v. 42:

"And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?"

This is in response to Peter's question in v. 37 of 'who?'

It is those who are trying to do God's will and are faithful watchman, etc etc.

Again v. 44 speaks of the faithful servant.

You are misunderstanding v. 46. And it is way too long to go into here, but it has to do with believers being decieved by the a/c

So, if the wicked servant(believer who has no good works) is appointed his portion(fate, judgment) with the unbelievers, then the unbelievers will suffer the same fate as the wicked servant. And 1Cr 3:15 clearly states they will be saved, yet so as by fire.

That is why all the language associated with the lake of fire is symbolic of purification or refinement. The word torment in the book of revelations is a translation of the word basanizo, a touchstone which is used in the process of refining metals to test the purity of the metals. That is why the lake of fire is said to be filled with brimstone. Brimstone is another word for sulfur ... Sulfur is an incense used for its purifying agents to ward off pestilence ... It was also used in religious ceremonies of the ancient Hebrews for consecrating holy relics. All the language and symbolism which is associated with the lake of fire refers us to ...

I agree about the touchstone, but not the way you explain it. Again too long to go into here.

Mal 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the *sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

*Note, who is Christ going to purify? the sons of Levi. Who are they? Priests.

Look at what Christ said here ...

Okay. This post is already way too long so I will quit for now. I know I myself don't usually read long posts.

Suffice to say, you are wrong. You take passages out of context and you fail to 'see' who each passage is speaking to and of.

Mar 9:49
For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

This again refers us to 1Cr 3:15, and clearly shows that it is not only referring to the believers.

Again we find ...

Rev 20:13
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Now we see the lake of fire is the test of men's works spoken of in 1 cor 3:12-15 ...


The thing is most Christians don't understand is that even Christians will undergo the test of fire, but will not suffer loss or be hurt of it ...


Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt(suffer loss) of the second death.


The thing most Christian's don't understand is that we are in the process of the death of the old man in our bodies now, and being drawn by the father to Christ we are undergoing the salting of fire in this life in this age. So that we will not be hurt of the lake of fire judgment in the fullness of times. But those who do not believe, are not being salted at this time, and will suffer loss and be hurt of the lake of fire. But they will be saved, yet so as by fire.


Now we read ...


1Cr 15:55
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


1Cr 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


So, if death is the last enemy destroyed, it is the last thing cast into the lake of fire ... And if death is being destroyed, then where is its victory? If you say that the majority of gods creation will be dead for ever, then death has a victory over most of Gods creation. If you say that death is everlasting for most people(those who are not Christians), then death shall certainly sting the Christians who had loved ones who did not believe and will be dead for ever and can never be seen again. But the wicked dead are resurrected after death is destroyed, and the grave is cast into the lake of fire along with death, so that no one is left in the grave at all... that is to say no one is left dead. And after all are purified in the lake of fire, they will finally and ever more bow before Christ and confess he is lord to the glory of the father ...


Psa 67:4
O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.


Psa 68:32
Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:


Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear(Heb - shaba` to swear allegiance, an oath of fealty).


Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.




Yes, God destroys his enemies, but he loves his enemies, just as Christ does, and he proved it when he asked god to forgive the children of the devil(pharisees/sadducees) who murdered him ... The wicked and the unbelievers will not inherit the kingdom. They will not take part in the first resurrection. They are corrected for the ages(aionios kolasis - age abiding correction), and will not be reconciled until the fullness of times ... And so it is written ...


1Ti 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Selah ...
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Old 09-30-2009, 07:23 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,474,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Again my replies in blue:

well, I said I was finished (fini)discussing this with you, but since you have put words in my mouth and are taking Scripture out of context I will continue for now.

Quote:
First, and I know you will argue with this, but you are confused as to who the 'we' are in the above passage. Here is who Paul is speaking to:

1 ¶ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

So Paul is adressing the 'church' and or the 'saints.'

I hear you say, yes only for those that believe before they die ... Of course there is no place in scripture that says you cannot be saved after you die. As a matter of fact the bible says clear as a bell that those who have no good works will suffer loss, but will be saved as though by fire.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never said, "those that believe before they die." Actually, if the truth be known, I don't'agree with that statement. I believe God is fair and the only ones He holds accountable for knowing the 'truth' are those who have heard the truth with understanding. Another subject for another time.
Wow, i cant believe this ... Are you listening the words that are coming out of my mouth? Or in this case the words that i am typing with my hands? I said you would say exactly what you came back and said.

I said you would say ...

"I hear you say, yes only for those that believe before they die(believers or saints)"

To which you come back and reply that i am putting words in your mouth, and then you go on to say exactly what i said you would say. You said ...

"So Paul is adressing the 'church' and or the 'saints.'"

Wow, i cant believe this ...


Quote:
1Cr 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here you have taken this verse out of context. Let's look at it in the context it was written in:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Who laid the foundation? Christ.

11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Which foundation? Christ.

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: *for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

*what day? The day of Christ's return.

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Why by fire? Because Christ has returned and it is His fire that will test the believer's works.

Now i hear you say this verse is only referring to those who believe but have no good works, which itself is a fallacious argument, but even if it where only referring the wicked servants(believers with no good works), we have Jesus parable of the wicked servant to tell us what the portion(fate) of the wicked servant is ...
Again, you said exactly what i said you would say and then you said i was putting words into your mouth. I said ...

"Now i hear you say this verse is only referring to those who believe but have no good works" ...


To which you replied ...

"Here you have taken this verse out of context" ... "Because Christ has returned and it is His fire that will test the believer's works"


Quote:
Luk 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Okay, again taken out of context. Let's look at v. 42:

"And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?"

This is in response to Peter's question in v. 37 of 'who?'

It is those who are trying to do God's will and are faithful watchman, etc etc.

Again v. 44 speaks of the faithful servant.

You are misunderstanding v. 46. And it is way too long to go into here, but it has to do with believers being decieved by the a/c
You completely glossed over the verse that i quoted, which plainly states the wicked servant(believer with no good works) will be appointed his portion with the unbelievers. You didnt even deal with my point at all but just said erroneously that i had taken the verse out of Context. The verse which i quoted said nothing about the good servant, it was speaking of the wicked servant. I used the verse to show that the wicked servant is appointed his portion with the unbelievers. So he is judged as an unbeliever. And we are told that the wicked servant(believer with no good works) will be saved as though by fire. So the unbelievers whose judgment is the same as the wicked servant will also be saved as though by fire. You didnt even begin to deal with my actual argument but instead presented a strawman argument and proceeded to deal with that instead. Are you serious?

See bellow
...

Quote:
So, if the wicked servant(believer who has no good works) is appointed his portion(fate, judgment) with the unbelievers, then the unbelievers will suffer the same fate as the wicked servant. And 1Cr 3:15 clearly states they will be saved, yet so as by fire.

That is why all the language associated with the lake of fire is symbolic of purification or refinement. The word torment in the book of revelations is a translation of the word basanizo, a touchstone which is used in the process of refining metals to test the purity of the metals. That is why the lake of fire is said to be filled with brimstone. Brimstone is another word for sulfur ... Sulfur is an incense used for its purifying agents to ward off pestilence ... It was also used in religious ceremonies of the ancient Hebrews for consecrating holy relics. All the language and symbolism which is associated with the lake of fire refers us to ...

I agree about the touchstone, but not the way you explain it. Again too long to go into here.

Of course you don't want to get into it, from everything you have posted in your last post to me, you don't want to deal with any of the actual arguments that i have presented.

Quote:
Mal 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the *sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

*Note, who is Christ going to purify? the sons of Levi. Who are they? Priests.
Note: Since Christ died and was resurrected, and since Israel was cut off to graft the gentile nations in ... The very judgments that God once reserved for Israel are now the same judgments with which he shall judge the whole world. And his purpose in judging the whole world are the same as his purposes for judging Israel back then.
Quote:
Look at what Christ said here ...

Okay. This post is already way too long so I will quit for now. I know I myself don't usually read long posts.

Suffice to say, you are wrong. You take passages out of context and you fail to 'see' who each passage is speaking to and of.
Suffice it to say you have failed miserably to deal with my arguments and have done and argued exactly what i said you would do and argue. You yourself don't usually make much sense either as far as i can tell from this last post to me. Your heart is hard and you do not love your enemies, and i believe you as of this moment are a wicked servant. So there ya go ... God bless and may he reveal to you the error of your ways.
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Old 09-30-2009, 07:47 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 941,797 times
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Quote:
Your heart is hard and you do not love your enemies, and i believe you as of this moment are a wicked servant. So there ya go ... God bless and may he reveal to you the error of your ways.
I'd be real careful who you call a wicked servant. I pray you repent and beg God to forgive you for such a careless, demeaning, and untruthful statement.
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