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I'd be real careful who you call a wicked servant. I pray you repent and beg God to forgive you for such a careless, demeaning, and untruthful statement.
The parable of the wicked servant ...
Quote:
Matthew 18:23-35 (New International Version)
23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
If the shoe fits wear it.
But let us look at the above parable, which doctrine sounds the most like the ways of the wicked servant above? THe doctrine of UR which teaches God has died for all and that unbelievers will be forgiven(saved) even as we the believers are forgiven(saved)?
Or the doctrines that teach only believers are forgiven(saved) and all others will not be forgiven(saved) but eternally tortured or forever imprisoned in death?
It seems pretty obvious to me.
You see i believe you will be forgiven and saved regardless of what you believe. As i will forgive and accept that god will forgive others even as he has forgiven me. But do you believe that i will be saved even though i believe in universal reconciliation? Or do you believe i am a false prophet and will burn in hell/be imprisoned in death for ever?
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-30-2009 at 07:21 PM..
You just hate the fact that God is reconciling all men and even Satan and his angels, because you don't truly love your enemies ... You just pretend like you do. If you really loved you enemies, you would rejoice in the word of universal reconciliation just as much as those of us who do love our enemies. Open your heart and let the truth of Gods grace and the complete love of Christ enter. Then you will be able to hear what the spirit is saying to the church.
"You just hate the fact that God is reconciling all men and even Satan and his angels,"
1 Corinthians 14:9
So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
I do know that this post will be my last to you, that it's time to shake the dust off. You're no longer speaking intelligibly.
As a parting words, I'll repeat the Master's Words:
"But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
You ask........ "But do you believe that i will be saved even though i believe in universal reconciliation? Or do you believe i am a false prophet and will burn in hell/be imprisoned in death for ever?"
the answer is:
"But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
"If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words......"
"He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words".....the foundation of UR
I'm not appointed to judge you...that will be up to Jesus on the last day.
Amen
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-30-2009 at 07:57 PM..
Let me start off looking at the first verses you listed.
Matthew 18:8 Therefore, if thy hand or thy foot cause thee to fall, cut them off and cast them from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.
Matthew 19:29 And everyone that hath forsaken houses or brethren or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold and shall inherit EVERLASTING LIFE.
Matthew 25:41 "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels...'
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL.
Luke 18:29-30 And He said unto them, "Verily, verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house or parents or brethren or wife or children for the Kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come LIFE EVERLASTING."
What in the context of any of these verses suggests that aionios must mean everlasting/eternal?
As you know these are all translations of the word aionios. Other bible translate these verses as eonian.
What is the question here Verna? Perhaps the question is this: Why does legoman believe that these verses should be translated eonian instead of eternal?
And the answer is if you study the usage of the word aion, you will see that it cannot mean eternal/forever in all cases where the word is used, but it can and does mean "age" or "eon" in all cases where the word is used. There is more to it than that, but that is the base answer for my understanding of these words and verses.
Please...clearly and precisely prove to me that the verses I shared in my OP that use the word EVERLASTING, DOES NOT MEAN EVERLASTING.
I mean come on legoman...according to my computer, we are on the 8th page now, (40 posts per page)...and I've yet to get a good answer from you on this....why is that? For some reason...you cannot come up with an answer. I won't get all "happy" about it if you admitt you can't...not like I did Ironmaw...he was just down right......rude to me, like he is with many others...you have been very respectful, and deserve that in return. So if this is something you need to admitt that you can not prove me wrong in, then just say so, and I'll leave it at that. I want something substantial...not the regular "you know what" that seems to get pasted over and over again...It proves nothing. And don't send me a link to go to...try explaining it to me like in a normal person to person conversation. Thank you legoman...
Oh...and truly...I do wish you a...HAPPYBIRTHDAY!!!........!!!!!!!
Sincerely, Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 10-01-2009 at 01:17 AM..
Please...clearly and precisely prove to me that the verses I shared in my OP that use the word EVERLASTING, DOES NOT MEAN EVERLASTING.
The fact is there are at least 6 examples in scripture where a negative consequence of sin is called aionion in the LXX and/or olam in Hebrew where the surrounding context shows that the aionion consequence is not everlasting. Given that, tell me why I should believe that the aionion consequences of sin in the examples you provided are everlasting.
...No matter what you have heard...
When Scripture declares something to be eternal...everlasting and forever, whatever it may be, it means just that.
The following comes from a Greek Dictionary:
* Please take note:
The term "EVERLASTING", #166, COMES FROM - #165, which IS THE SAME AS - #104.
#166. ainios; comes from #165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, everlasting, world (began)
#165. aion; from the same as #104; prop. an age; by extens. perpetuity (also past); by impl. the world; spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future); - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (more), [n-] ever (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end)
#104. ah-eye'; from an obs. prim. noun (apparent meaning continued duration); "ever," by qualification regularly; by impl. earnestly; - always, ever.
Do not be lured into a false sense of security (thinking that no matter what you do in this lifetime, you will be saved from being permanently...eternally separated from God) by allowing your pride to deceive you...please do not be deceived by pride.
Obadiah 1:3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high, thus saith in his heart, "Who shall bring me down to the ground?'
Revelation 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself and lived voluptuously! That much torment and sorrow give back to her: for she saith in her heart, 'I sit a queen and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.'
*********************
The following verses that include the word "everlasting", falls under the #166 meaning...
Matthew 18:8 Therefore, if thy hand or thy foot cause thee to fall, cut them off and cast them from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.
Matthew 19:29 And everyone that hath forsaken houses or brethren or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold and shall inherit EVERLASTING LIFE.
Matthew 25:41 "Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels...'
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL.
Luke 18:29-30 And He said unto them, "Verily, verily I say unto you, there is no man that hath left house or parents or brethren or wife or children for the Kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come LIFE EVERLASTING."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have EVERLASTING LIFE."
John 3:36 "He that believeth in the Son hath EVERLASTING LIFE; and he that believeth not in the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE, but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 4:14 "...but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE."
John 5:24 "Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath EVERLASTING LIFE and shall not come into CONDEMNATION but is passed from death unto life."
John 6:27 "Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto EVERLASTING LIFE, which the Son of man shall give unto you; for on Him hath God the Father sent His Son."
John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him that sent Me: that everyone who seeth the Son and believeth in Him may have EVERLASTING LIFE and I will raise him up at the last Day."
John 6:47 "Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth on Me hath EVERLASTING LIFE."
John 6:50 And I know that His commandment is LIFE EVERLASTING. Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold and said, "It was necessary that the Word of God should first have been spoken to you. But seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of EVERLASTING LIFE, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Romans 6:22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end EVERLASTING LIFE.
Romans 16:26 but now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets according to the commandments of the EVERLASTING God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith...
Galatians 6:8 for he that soweth to his flesh shall also of the flesh reap CORRUPTION; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap EVERLASTING LIFE.
2 Thess. 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1:9 "These shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD and FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER."
2 Thess. 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God even our Father, who hath loved us and hath given us EVERLASTING consolation and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work."
1 Timothy 1:16 "Nonetheless, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in Me first Jesus Christ show forth all long suffering as a pattern for those who should hereafter believe in Him to LIFE EVERLASTING."
Hebrews 13:20 "Now the God of peace, who brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT, make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Revelation 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation and kindred, and tongue and people, saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him. for the hour of His Judgment is come. Worship Him that made heaven and earth, and the sea and the fountains of waters."
In His EverlastingLove,
Verna.
Verna,
While I totally agree with you the words, eternal, everlasting and for ever mean what they say, but what many fail to realize is it's the 'results' that have no end.
Example from your Scriptures:
Matthew 18:8 Therefore, if thy hand or thy foot cause thee to fall, cut them off and cast them from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.
It's not the fire that lasts for ever. It's the result, the perishing, the turning to ashes that is everlasting. In other words what is burned, and turned to ashes will never be restored, but will gone for ever. As here:
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
So what is this passage saying? It says God's enemies with be totally destroyed (meaning of perish). It also says they will consume away as smoke.
Let's think here a minute. What happens to 'fat' when it hits the fire? It turns to smoke. Right? What does that smoke do? It goes up and is gone. For how long? For an unending amount of time or is it gone to never be seen again. Same as Sodom and Gomorha...are they still burning or has their fire gone out?
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL.
Again those who are punished aren't going to be punished without end. Does that sound like a fair God? No, again the result is everlasting. They will NEVER see God again. That's their punishment, not to be punished over and over, without end, but to be gone, never to be remembered by God ever again. Not to ever exsist ever again. Gone, done away with, perished, gone up like smoke.
How can I say this with such certainty? I find it in the Word:
Aside from the many passages that speak of the end of the unbelievers let's look at some very over looked passages:
Gal.4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the *elements of the world:
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly *elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the *rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the *rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances.
Heb. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the *first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
* each word I put the * by are all Strong's #4747 stoicheion and means elementry rules.
So what is my point? Let's look at one more passage:
2 Pet.3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the *elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the *elements shall melt with fervent heat?
*The "elements" are not the elements that you think of, such as gold, iron, oxygen and so on, but they are the "evil rudiments" that go to make up the evil in this earth age. This includes the evil spirits, the fallen angels, and all the things and forms of idolatry that cause flesh man to sin.
Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Verna,
While I totally agree with you the words, eternal, everlasting and for ever mean what they say, but what many fail to realize is it's the 'results' that have no end.
Example from your Scriptures:
Matthew 18:8 Therefore, if thy hand or thy foot cause thee to fall, cut them off and cast them from thee; it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE.
It's not the fire that lasts for ever. It's the result, the perishing, the turning to ashes that is everlasting. In other words what is burned, and turned to ashes will never be restored, but will gone for ever. As here:
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
So what is this passage saying? It says God's enemies with be totally destroyed (meaning of perish). It also says they will consume away as smoke.
Let's think here a minute. What happens to 'fat' when it hits the fire? It turns to smoke. Right? What does that smoke do? It goes up and is gone. For how long? For an unending amount of time or is it gone to never be seen again. Same as Sodom and Gomorha...are they still burning or has their fire gone out?
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT, but the righteous into LIFE ETERNAL.
Again those who are punished aren't going to be punished without end. Does that sound like a fair God? No, again the result is everlasting. They will NEVER see God again. That's their punishment, not to be punished over and over, without end, but to be gone, never to be remembered by God ever again. Not to ever exsist ever again. Gone, done away with, perished, gone up like smoke.
How can I say this with such certainty? I find it in the Word:
Aside from the many passages that speak of the end of the unbelievers let's look at some very over looked passages:
Gal.4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the *elements of the world:
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly *elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the *rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the *rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances.
Heb. 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the *first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
* each word I put the * by are all Strong's #4747 stoicheion and means elementry rules.
So what is my point? Let's look at one more passage:
2 Pet.3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the *elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the *elements shall melt with fervent heat?
*The "elements" are not the elements that you think of, such as gold, iron, oxygen and so on, but they are the "evil rudiments" that go to make up the evil in this earth age. This includes the evil spirits, the fallen angels, and all the things and forms of idolatry that cause flesh man to sin.
Re 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
fervent means to consume.
Those words can mean everlasting, eternal, forever, but that is not their only meaning and use in scripture.
In the context of "Correction" and the context that correction is successful, then everlasting punishment is a CONTRADICTION.
Successful correction does not require, nor is it compatible with an everlasting means of correction.
So if someone claims that I cannot prove that the words from Greek cannot mean everlasting, etc, they are correct, but the rest of the story is that's NOT the only way they can be used. I do not need to disprove it in order to see that everlasting has an abstract nature to my perceptions and that a temporal perspective applies to my path and walk with God in matters of my literal and successful correction.
It is simply doctrinal positioning from both sides rather than an admittance of the full spectrum of the word.
Those words can mean everlasting, eternal, forever, but that is not their only meaning and use in scripture.
In the context of "Correction" and the context that correction is successful, then everlasting punishment is a CONTRADICTION.
Successful correction does not require, nor is it compatible with an everlasting means of correction.
So if someone claims that I cannot prove that the words from Greek cannot mean everlasting, etc, they are correct, but the rest of the story is that's NOT the only way they can be used. I do not need to disprove it in order to see that everlasting has an abstract nature to my perceptions and that a temporal perspective applies to my path and walk with God in matters of my literal and successful correction.
It is simply doctrinal positioning from both sides rather than an admittance of the full spectrum of the word.
Phazelwood,
If you are saying everlasting is owlam and means an age than I agree with you, but, and I am not trying to be rude, sarcastic, or any such thing, but I truly do not understand the rest of what you're saying...
Phazelwood,
If you are saying everlasting is owlam and means an age than I agree with you, but, and I am not trying to be rude, sarcastic, or any such thing, but I truly do not understand the rest of what you're saying...
Sorry...
I was referring to the Greek, I had not addressed Hebrew. Olam could carry the implication of eternity because it inherantly does not mean age. Even secular scholars understand the word to intend to convey the meaning of what cannot be readily percieved.
I do not believe a perspective of everlasting was intended in the old testament but we cannot completely discount it.
Translations that use Everlasting from the word Olam tend to give contradictions that are not just easily cast aside by simple explanations. The levitical preisthood is not everlasting, so to say it is beyond the abstract of the writers of the day not knowing that it would end is an error.
Please...clearly and precisely prove to me that the verses I shared in my OP that use the word EVERLASTING, DOES NOT MEAN EVERLASTING.
I mean come on legoman...according to my computer, we are on the 8th page now, (40 posts per page)...and I've yet to get a good answer from you on this....why is that? For some reason...you cannot come up with an answer. I won't get all "happy" about it if you admitt you can't...not like I did Ironmaw...he was just down right......rude to me, like he is with many others...you have been very respectful, and deserve that in return. So if this is something you need to admitt that you can not prove me wrong in, then just say so, and I'll leave it at that. I want something substantial...not the regular "you know what" that seems to get pasted over and over again...It proves nothing. And don't send me a link to go to...try explaining it to me like in a normal person to person conversation. Thank you legoman...
Oh...and truly...I do wish you a...HAPPYBIRTHDAY!!!........!!!!!!!
Sincerely, Verna.
Verna, I believe myself and others have given much proof in the many posts on this forum. However you may not see it as proof, I can not force you to study this, I can only say that I have studied it and proved it for myself. Also keep in mind I have been intensely studying this specific area for 2 years now, so it can be difficult to present the basics in "normal person to person conversation without links" in one email post, when it took me probably a year to 100% convince myself of the evidence. However I did believe the possibility of UR within about 2 weeks I'd say, only because it made sense on its most basic level, and God had opened my heart to it. It took the rest of the year to work through all the translations and see how all the verses fit in... verses like you present in your OP.
So I will try to answer your question in normal person to person conversation. But at a certain point it is up to you to investige what I am saying or not. It really depends on your heart, and you will have to do alot of homework.
Aion
All of your verses are talking about "aionios" and how it is translated as "everlasting" or an equivalent (eternal, forever). Aionios is the adjective of the word "aion", so in order to understand aionios we must first understand the word aion.
I will pick on the KJV translation a bit here because it is one of the worst offenders in mistranslating the word "aion". Aion appears 128 times in the NT. The KJV translates in a variety of imaginitive ways: ever, world, never (when negative) course, evermore, age, eternal. Right of the bat we see a couple things. Aion is very similar to the english word Eon. In fact that is where the english word Eon comes from. Look it up for yourself on dictionary.reference.com - the English word eon comes from the greek word "aion".
Secondly we see the KJV translates one word to mean two opposite things. Notice twice it was translated as "age" meaning "eon" or a time period of limited duration, but then it is also translated many times to mean "eternity" or unlimited duration! Hmmm.
Now lets look at some of the usage of the greek "aion" (and how the KJV translated it):
BEFORE the aions: I Cor. 2:7 (aions plural translated as "world" singular)
God MAKES the aions: Heb. 1:2 (aions translated as "worlds" plural)
PAST aions: Col. 1:26 (aions translated as "ages")
PRESENT aion: Gal. 1:4 (aion singular translated as "world" singular)
END of present aion: Mat. 24:3 (aion singular translated as "world" singular)
The NEXT aion: Lk. 18:30 (aion singular translated as "world" singular)
FUTURE aions: Eph. 2:7 (aions plural translated as "ages" plural)
CONTRASTING aions: Eph. 3:21 (aion translated as BOTH "ages" and "world"!!!)
ENDS of the aions: I Cor.10:11 (aions plural translated as "world" singular)
Does this seem like correct and accurate translation to you? Aion is also translated as "for ever" in many other verses. Yet these verses tell us there were many aions (multiple forevers?), aions begin, and aions end (does forever begin and end?). And why is plural "aions" being translated as singular world? What is going on here? Is this honest and accurate scholarship? Even in one single verse we see aion is translated both as ages and "world".
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages (aions), world (aions) without end. Amen.
I urge you to go through all 128 uses of the word "aion" in the NT and see whether a uniform translation of "age" makes sense as opposed to the myriad of translations like age, world, ever, forever, eternal. Other bibles even translate it more unreasonably diversely with words like: universe, nations, ancient, of old, immortal, permanent, etc. Inconsistency abounds in the translation of this one word.
For ever and ever
Now lets look at the common phrase "for ever and ever". Take Rev 11:15 for example, in the KJV:
Rev 11:15 The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever (aions) and ever (aions).
There are some problems here with this translation in the KJV. First it is aions plural. Wouldn't For evers and evers be more accurate (but would that make sense)? The second problem is, its not aions and aions in the greek. Its aions OF the aions. There is a difference. Aions of the aions indicates its talking about certain specific aions out of all the aions.
The third problem is the KJV is saying that Christ will reign for eternity. Yet this is not what scripture says elsewhere.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
This tells us Christ reigns UNTIL all enemies are under His feet. Then all is put under God (in verse 28). Christ's reign ENDS because it only lasts UNTIL 1 Cor 15:25 happens. How can Rev 11:15 be saying Christ reigns forever and ever then? However if we apply the more literal translation of "aions of aions"; or "ages of the ages", for Rev 11:15, there is no contradiction with 1 Cor 15:25.
(Side note why "forever and ever"? Why not just "forever"?) There are too many things here that don't add up when you consider all this. Compare some other translations other than KJV. Some have some really wacky translations of the word "aion" just to avoid saying that it means "age".
If you are of an open mind Verna, you may be questioning what is going on here with this word "aion". I started to question it when I first discovered this information.
Literal Bible Translations
Now here's the interesting bit. While the KJV seems to have been playing fast and loose with its translation of "aion", there is a translation called the Concordant Literal New Testament, which always always ALWAYS translates the word "aion" as the English equivalent "eon" (which simply means an indefinite period of time - an age). Young's literal is another such literal translation. Part of your homework Verna is to look up all these verses and your verses in the OP in the Concordant or Young's literal (available on biblegateway.com) to see what they say. Even check out other versions like the NIV, NLT, NASB, Amplified, etc. You will see they don't always translate aion the same way as the KJV, but none are as consistent in their translation as the literal bible translations.
There is much more to this study on aion but this is a start. If you can see that aion maybe doesn't mean "world", "eternal", or "ever" and instead should have only been translated as "age" or "eon", then we are making progress.
The word "aionios" is the adjective form of "aion", so the next step is to understand what aionios means if aion does indeed mean "age".
This post is getting too long (and has taken me several hours to research and type), so I will continue with aionios in my next post.
I was referring to the Greek, I had not addressed Hebrew. Olam could carry the implication of eternity because it inherantly does not mean age. Even secular scholars understand the word to intend to convey the meaning of what cannot be readily percieved.
I do not believe a perspective of everlasting was intended in the old testament but we cannot completely discount it.
Translations that use Everlasting from the word Olam tend to give contradictions that are not just easily cast aside by simple explanations. The levitical preisthood is not everlasting, so to say it is beyond the abstract of the writers of the day not knowing that it would end is an error.
True that owlam (for ever)doesn't mean age, but olwam does have a beginning and an end.
Jonah said he was in the whale for ever.
This shows us owlam has a beginning; the moment the 'whale' swallowed him, and the 'end,' when the fish vomited him out.
Jon 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
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