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Old 09-29-2009, 06:59 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
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Would it surprise the proponents of universal redemption who also believe in the rapture and 7-year tribulation that, apart from neither even being a part of holy scripture, the very idea of a rapture followed by 7 years of literal hell-on-earth is just another form of the doctrine of eternal torment--a scam designed to scare the living daylights out of every single Christian on earth into accepting Jesus, not unlike the use of eternal-torment-in-hell to accomplish the same purpose? Can there really be much difference in what the two, eternal torment and the rapture/7-year tribulation try to accomplish. More importantly, can Christians be that blind that they cannot see the similarities?

Quote:
"9/11 was a wake up call to America," LaHaye told Morley Safer in his "60 Minutes II" interview. "Suddenly, our false sense of security was shaken. Now we realize we're vulnerable. And that fear can lead many people to Christ. "I see many signs of the Lord's return. This could be the generation that's going to hear Jesus shout from the heaven and we'll respond to be with him. And you don't want your loved ones to be left behind," he pointed out.
Try and tell me that Tim LaHaye is not trying to frighten the living hell out of people when he says "You don't want your loved ones to be left behind, do you?" How is that any different than an eternal tormentist telling people, "You don't want your loved one to burn in eternal hell-fire, do you?"

Yet there is a voice of reason out there. Barbara Rossing is the author of The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation

Publisher's Weekly says:

"Ordained minister Rossing is ready to do battle with evangelicals both within and outside of her Lutheran Church camp. Rossing, who teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, begins her sparring by taking on the widely popular Left Behind series and all it presumes to communicate about the future of the world. Claiming that the Left Behind authors' interpretation of prophetic biblical verses is "fiction," Rossing firmly asserts that the Book of Revelation has a completely different purpose than to predict upcoming world uprisings and the eventual end of the earth. Instead, Rossing believes that this biblical vision is meant to inspire humanity to seek out "repentance and justice."

Quote:
"In her interview with Whitehead, Rossing turns the tables on the Rapture faithful who see death, annihilation, and years of terror: "I was on '60 Minutes' 1111] with Tim LaHaye. He said that liberals have created this loving, wimpy Jesus and that we need the judgmental, warrior Jesus. The big question now is what is the true image of Jesus? A loving Jesus is not wimpy. A loving Jesus is precisely who Jesus is and that is how he is portrayed in the Gospels."

Rather than scare the living daylights out of folks, the "Book of Revelation" actually aims "to comfort and inspire Christians to a vision of hope," Rossing stated. "In the early Roman Empire, when it looked like violence was getting out of hand-much like things today-it was a message to people that the empire would not last much longer and that the emperor was not the one in charge of the world. Jesus is in our midst, but He is not the avenging warrior Jesus. Jesus is the lamb who is leading us to a different way of life-one espousing love."
Now isn't this the way universal redemptionists prefer to see God--as a loving, caring Father who is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the truth?" So why should it be so different with the rapture and the tribulation---theories concocted by evil men who deliberately misrepresent Revelation, a book whose only purpose was to bring hope and encouragement to a population of emerging Christians being martyred mercilessly by the Roman empire?
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,389,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Would it surprise the proponents of universal redemption who also believe in the rapture and 7-year tribulation that, apart from neither even being a part of holy scripture, the very idea of a rapture followed by 7 years of literal hell-on-earth is just another form of the doctrine of eternal torment--a scam designed to scare the living daylights out of every single Christian on earth into accepting Jesus, not unlike the use of eternal-torment-in-hell to accomplish the same purpose? Can there really be much difference in what the two, eternal torment and the rapture/7-year tribulation try to accomplish. More importantly, can Christians be that blind that they cannot see the similarities?



Try and tell me that Tim LaHaye is not trying to frighten the living hell out of people when he says "You don't want your loved ones to be left behind, do you?" How is that any different than an eternal tormentist telling people, "You don't want your loved one to burn in eternal hell-fire, do you?"

Yet there is a voice of reason out there. Barbara Rossing is the author of The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation

Publisher's Weekly says:

"Ordained minister Rossing is ready to do battle with evangelicals both within and outside of her Lutheran Church camp. Rossing, who teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, begins her sparring by taking on the widely popular Left Behind series and all it presumes to communicate about the future of the world. Claiming that the Left Behind authors' interpretation of prophetic biblical verses is "fiction," Rossing firmly asserts that the Book of Revelation has a completely different purpose than to predict upcoming world uprisings and the eventual end of the earth. Instead, Rossing believes that this biblical vision is meant to inspire humanity to seek out "repentance and justice."



Now isn't this the way universal redemptionists prefer to see God--as a loving, caring Father who is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the truth?" So why should it be so different with the rapture and the tribulation---theories concocted by evil men who deliberately misrepresent Revelation, a book whose only purpose was to bring hope and encouragement to a population of emerging Christians being martyred mercilessly by the Roman empire?
Yes I see her point and yours. I am a UR/Preterist heathen so of course I will agree with that

It does seem strange to me that some can believe in UR and still uphold "rapture" views, but I think there is the "elect" that makes this possible. With the "elect" being any generation that happens to be alive at the time of the "rapture" then it makes sense that this "elect" will be caught up.

But that's just my opinion Thanks for the info.
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:35 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,772,736 times
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I don`t believe in a secret rapture but a rapture and a finite tribulation period cannot equate to everlasting torture. Boy, you love talking about this rapture thing don`t you?
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:43 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,452,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Would it surprise the proponents of universal redemption who also believe in the rapture and 7-year tribulation that, apart from neither even being a part of holy scripture, the very idea of a rapture followed by 7 years of literal hell-on-earth is just another form of the doctrine of eternal torment--a scam designed to scare the living daylights out of every single Christian on earth into accepting Jesus, not unlike the use of eternal-torment-in-hell to accomplish the same purpose? Can there really be much difference in what the two, eternal torment and the rapture/7-year tribulation try to accomplish. More importantly, can Christians be that blind that they cannot see the similarities?
I am curious when was the last time you shared your faith to a stranger and NOT ON A COMPUTER?
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:34 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Boy, you love talking about this rapture thing don`t you?
Apparently, I do. It just seems to push a button with me. Like eternal torment with Rodger, I suppose, and preterism with Preterist. At least we're fortunate to have Ilene here to psychoanalyze the h3ll out of us---and I mean that literally.

Actually, if you'll notice, most of my diatribe is leveled against the prophecy pimps. I know them for what they are--a bunch of scam artists using a doctrine they know to be false to line their pockets with gold and silver. Hulk Lindsley is a perfect example: sterling example of a good Christian leader with four wives, a multi-million dollar bank account, and an endless string of books that say the same thing over and over and over that he uses as a money-cranking machine to pay off an endless string of ex's so they won't haul him back into court for non-payment of alimony. If he wanted four wives why didn't he just convert to Islam and do it legitimately?

My real pet peeve, however, are the gullible Christians who enable these jerks to live their lavish lifestyles on poverty-stricken Christians' last dime. There's a sucker born every second in the Christian community and they never seem to catch on, no matter how many times more mature Christians like myself point out to them that they are being fleeced by these wh*res-for-a-buck. That they're in bed with each other and nobody in the Christian Body seems to care makes this all the more tragic.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-30-2009 at 08:57 AM..
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:36 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
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see above

Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-30-2009 at 08:58 AM..
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Old 09-30-2009, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,708,182 times
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to suffer for 7 years or to suffer to infinity is a huge differences, don't you think?
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Old 09-30-2009, 09:07 AM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
to suffer for 7 years or to suffer to infinity is a huge differences, don't you think?
It's the principle I'm referring to sven---using the tribulation to scare someone into serving Jesus like the Et'er use hellfire. Isn't one equally as bad as the other, regardless of the duration?
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Old 09-30-2009, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,708,182 times
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if their only intention is to scare people then you're right, I've heard that Jehovah Witnesses are very afraid of Armaggedon, though they do not believe in any afterlife punishment at all, not even in a resurrection if judgment.

btw the way you speak, you sound as if you would not believe any longer in everlasting torment? - is my impression right?
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:16 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,406,571 times
Reputation: 682
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Would it surprise the proponents of universal redemption who also believe in the rapture and 7-year tribulation that, apart from neither even being a part of holy scripture, the very idea of a rapture followed by 7 years of literal hell-on-earth is just another form of the doctrine of eternal torment--a scam designed to scare the living daylights out of every single Christian on earth into accepting Jesus, not unlike the use of eternal-torment-in-hell to accomplish the same purpose? Can there really be much difference in what the two, eternal torment and the rapture/7-year tribulation try to accomplish. More importantly, can Christians be that blind that they cannot see the similarities?



Try and tell me that Tim LaHaye is not trying to frighten the living hell out of people when he says "You don't want your loved ones to be left behind, do you?" How is that any different than an eternal tormentist telling people, "You don't want your loved one to burn in eternal hell-fire, do you?"

Yet there is a voice of reason out there. Barbara Rossing is the author of The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation

Publisher's Weekly says:

"Ordained minister Rossing is ready to do battle with evangelicals both within and outside of her Lutheran Church camp. Rossing, who teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, begins her sparring by taking on the widely popular Left Behind series and all it presumes to communicate about the future of the world. Claiming that the Left Behind authors' interpretation of prophetic biblical verses is "fiction," Rossing firmly asserts that the Book of Revelation has a completely different purpose than to predict upcoming world uprisings and the eventual end of the earth. Instead, Rossing believes that this biblical vision is meant to inspire humanity to seek out "repentance and justice."



Now isn't this the way universal redemptionists prefer to see God--as a loving, caring Father who is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the truth?" So why should it be so different with the rapture and the tribulation---theories concocted by evil men who deliberately misrepresent Revelation, a book whose only purpose was to bring hope and encouragement to a population of emerging Christians being martyred mercilessly by the Roman empire?

I hear ya Thrillobyte, and to be honest I'm not sure how many URers believe in the pre-trib rapture/7-year tribulation thing. I don't anymore.

I was big into that after 911 happened, I started reading the whole Left Behind series, figuring it was going to happen probably exactly like Tim LaHaye wrote. Later on I realized it was just fiction, and the scripture ties were tenuous at best. But most of this I realized after I learnt about UR, because then I felt the need to research it all myself, as opposed to trusting the Tim LaHaye's of the world.

Its just another form of peddling fear, and fear sells, which means $$$$ for someone.
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