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Old 10-01-2009, 09:18 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,835,683 times
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Mark 3:29
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

Mark 4:12
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

"Never means never"......

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Nothing like quoting God! ( just for you Kat )....Jesus is God (John1:1)
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Old 10-02-2009, 09:21 AM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,315,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
where do you get this stuff?

Ambiguous verses and you have the answers!
Which stuff, particularly? I would be happy to show you in detail if you want to know, but which particular stuff?
I study to show myself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, and after the foundation of repentance and faith in Christ was laid in my life, I began to build on it, "going on", so that I could be a teacher in His Church because of leaving the milk behind and growing to maturity, not living on milk for babes, but true bread for adults.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. "Rightly dividing the Word of Truth" means laying it all out side by side, as farmer does his rows for planting, so that we may compare and learn context.


Hbr 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,405,317 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Mark 3:29
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

Mark 4:12
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

"Never means never"......

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Nothing like quoting God! ( just for you Kat )....Jesus is God (John1:1)
I'm not sure how this applies to the OP?
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Old 10-02-2009, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,405,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Which stuff, particularly? I would be happy to show you in detail if you want to know, but which particular stuff?
I study to show myself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, and after the foundation of repentance and faith in Christ was laid in my life, I began to build on it, "going on", so that I could be a teacher in His Church because of leaving the milk behind and growing to maturity, not living on milk for babes, but true bread for adults.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. "Rightly dividing the Word of Truth" means laying it all out side by side, as farmer does his rows for planting, so that we may compare and learn context.


Hbr 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
This stuff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme View Post
Hell is from the Hebrew etymons for "hollow", and sheol and hell are both the same word, denoting the hollow places of the earth which Enoch saw and which Jesus told about in Luke 16, and which are mentioned as the abode of the speaking, dead souls, in Enoch and in the OT.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of theearth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
The hollow of the earth has four separated places, which Enoch reported on when he was taken on the tour of the universe. The chained angels are in the lowest chambers of the hollow/Sheol/hell of earth

And Hell is also an entity, the messenger of death, who is a Satan, who claims the victims for Hell/Sheol, the feminine counterpart entity to the messenger of death, in the OT.
This stuff.. Where do you get such detail. I've read the bible several times over, just the regular bible not all text written from that era, and I don't recall ever seeing anything like this.

Quote:
He takes em to her, and she opens her mouth wide to receive them, and sometimes she enlarges "herself" -the hollows she controls below, to make room for massive amounts of souls descending in great calamities -like wars, earthquakes, and so on.

In God's creation every force is an entity answerable to the Creator, like the lightning, clouds, winds, etc, and all answer to the angels set over them, who answer up the chain of command of the host of heaven, directly to God.
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]? Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Enoch and the OT and NT show that the host of heaven are regulated by the Creator much as an army is, and are not free to go "rogue" without being chained, or cast into the Lake of Fire.
You seem to believe in the spiritual world as an actual world rather than a form or a shadowing of this one.

Would you say that the people depicted in the OT and NT were more aware of the world or less than us today?

I would have to do a study on the book of Enoch in order to properly identify with what you are saying. From my limited understanding, Enoch was written between 300BC and the 1st century AD... when did Enoch actually live?

Also, the book is similar to the book of the apocalypse in its visionary and apocalyptic terms. I don't believe it can be taken literally. Visions show a picture of something in reality with colorful words.

Now I realize that Enoch himself nor anyone else mentioned in the book wrote the book but it was most likely written from oral tradition.
However, how does that help with who is written in the book of life?
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Old 10-02-2009, 05:05 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 4,315,621 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
This stuff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
Hell is from the Hebrew etymons for "hollow", and sheol and hell are both the same word, denoting the hollow places of the earth which Enoch saw and which Jesus told about in Luke 16, and which are mentioned as the abode of the speaking, dead souls, in Enoch and in the OT.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of theearth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
The hollow of the earth has four separated places, which Enoch reported on when he was taken on the tour of the universe. The chained angels are in the lowest chambers of the hollow/Sheol/hell of earth

And Hell is also an entity, the messenger of death, who is a Satan, who claims the victims for Hell/Sheol, the feminine counterpart entity to the messenger of death, in the OT.
This stuff.. Where do you get such detail. I've read the bible several times over, just the regular bible not all text written from that era, and I don't recall ever seeing anything like this.

Okay, on hell as a hollow of earth;
the root etymons of sheol/hell as a hollow goes back to Hebrew. I have Isaac Mozeson's dictionary, "The Word", showing that the root etymons of most English words go back to Hebrew [all languages do go back to the mother tongue which was confounded/mingled at Babel, which tongue is called Edenic by Mozeson, and is early Hebrew] but you can see the page with "hollow" at this link -size it up to read it;

The Word: The Dictionary That ... - Google Books

There are different compartments in hell below, and there is a
"lowest" level in hell, and higher levels; Deu 32:22 &
Psa 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Enoch saw the hollows of earth:
Quote:
1 Enoch [Chapter 22]
1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.'



I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.'



8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits.



There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
Now in verse 8 of 1 Enoch 22, we see the place where Abraham and Lazarus the beggar were waiting for the day of Atonement, in hell below [the finished Atonement was what they were waiting for, there, when they would be taken to Mount Zion above ,at Jesus' resurrection from the dead] , when Jesus spoke of them in Luke 16. We also see where the certain rich man was, in that chapter;

'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water.
Quote:



Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Lazarus was in the place where there were bright springs of water, which Enoch saw, but the certain rich man was in flames of torment;


But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
gotta-stop-
mouse-has-quit-help!
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Old 10-02-2009, 05:49 PM
 
1,310 posts, read 2,645,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
An interesting topic as an offshoot of the many "eternal damnation" threads currently open is that of the "Book of Life."

Without using traditional views of the "book of life" is it possible to find out what exactly is written in it?

It seems that if you believe there is eternal damnation if you are not written in the book then you really should know how your name gets in it or how it is blotted from it.

I will start with the assertion that it is a book of all the lives lived as stated in
Psalm 139:16
"your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

It would seem that David believed it is the recording of life that God has made. This would seem to include all persons who ever lived or who will live.

But where does that leave those "not written in the book of life" in Rev 20 that are said to be cast into the lake of fire. Does that mean that only non-living things are cast into the lake of fire?
The Book of Life contain the names of those who have recieved Salvation by Christ finished work on Calvary alone...thruout all of history . As scripture say...if you name was not found in the Book of Life, then there will be very deep regret for having missed out on spending eternity in Gods wonderful and exciting presence. Do you need to get in the Book of Life ? Then refer to Romans 10:8-12 and very sincerely do as it instructs because it is Gods Word which is the truth on how to secure your eternal home with God ; Heaven. Its dangerous to put something like this off. Regards.
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,639,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
An interesting topic as an offshoot of the many "eternal damnation" threads currently open is that of the "Book of Life."

Without using traditional views of the "book of life" is it possible to find out what exactly is written in it?

It seems that if you believe there is eternal damnation if you are not written in the book then you really should know how your name gets in it or how it is blotted from it.

I will start with the assertion that it is a book of all the lives lived as stated in
Psalm 139:16
"your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

It would seem that David believed it is the recording of life that God has made. This would seem to include all persons who ever lived or who will live.

But where does that leave those "not written in the book of life" in Rev 20 that are said to be cast into the lake of fire. Does that mean that only non-living things are cast into the lake of fire?
I believe there is only one name that is going to be written in the Book of Life. Consider that everyone who sins will be blotted out of the book of life. That means that all of us that have ever sinned have already been blotted out. That leaves who? - Jesus Christ. So if we are all in the name of Christ then were in. But I know of no where in scripture where it says that one's name gets added to the book of life.

Paul
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:30 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,567,154 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Mark 4:12
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

"Never means never"......
And μή means not

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Mark 4 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
  • Mark 4:12 so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them. NKJV
Likewise in KJV, NLT, ESV, NASB, RSV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB


As in Romans 11 where μή means not and does not mean never.
  • Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
  • Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:31 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,596,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
The problem is that the words "second death" are a little confusing. We know from reading scripture that there is one time for a man to die and he can die no more or Christ would have to keep paying for sins.

However, there is physical death and spiritual death. If the first death is spiritual death and the second death is physical death... how does that affect the reading of the verse? This also accounts for the second death being destroyed. But that cannot give reason to hell being destroyed in hell. It is actually Hades that is thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell as we know it does not exist. Hades is a holding place, Jesus says we shall not all sleep. Sleeping is referring to Hades. We shall all be changed. So if Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, we are not annihilated, we are changed.
Quote:
The problem is that the words "second death" are a little confusing.
It's not confusing if you read what the Word says about it. The Word says the lake of fire is the second death:

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Note when the lake of fire/second death is mentioned:

Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This is after the Millennium.

Quote:
We know from reading scripture that there is one time for a man to die and he can die no more or Christ would have to keep paying for sins.
True, so this shows us the 'first' death is the death of the flesh (man dies once) and the second death is what Christ spoke of in Mattew, the death of the soul. It is the 'soul' that is killed in the lake of fire, the second death.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

hell #1067 geenna valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem.

This was the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem that burned perpetually so there were worms there that never died. Christ used it figurativly as the lake of fire.

Quote:
This also accounts for the second death being destroyed.
Hmmm..where does it say the second death is destroyed?

Quote:
But that cannot give reason to hell being destroyed in hell. It is actually Hades that is thrown into the lake of fire.
Hell is #86 and means the grave. There will be no need for 'graves' anymore since there with be no physical death anymore.

Quote:
Sleeping is referring to Hades
Sleep is #2837 and refers to death, dying.

Quote:
We shall all be changed. So if Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, we are not annihilated, we are changed
You are slightly confused here and mixing apples with oranges. Being changed happens at the 7th trump.
Souls being cast into the lake of fire happens 1,000 yrs later. These souls (no longer in a physical body) that are cast into the lake of fire have been judged at the WTJ and found guilty of the death and are turned to ashes and exsist no more.
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Old 10-02-2009, 06:36 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,567,154 times
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I believe there is only one name that is going to be written in the Book of Life. Consider that everyone who sins will be blotted out of the book of life. That means that all of us that have ever sinned have already been blotted out. That leaves who? - Jesus Christ. So if we are all in the name of Christ then were in. But I know of no where in scripture where it says that one's name gets added to the book of life.

Paul
Amen... there is lots of scripture about being given a new name.
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